Ok so ... GermanJoey, by his comment, seems to indicate that city-trades I was involved in were 'Abuse'. As a player with a stack in the outcome of PB25, being an active player in an ongoing game, and also as a player with a relatively high Victory-probability ... it makes it highly annoying when someone assumes that it was anything OTHER than being on the up and up (aka wanting myself to win, in context of the game).
Sure giving up Alexandria was, in some ways, a HUGE sacrifice ... but it was worth it. The City Trade has INCREASED my Victory probability, in every conceivable arena.
----> If one can argue that not going through with the trade would have increased my chances for total victory .... I'd like to see your reasoning. Land = Power is certainly a relevant component, and will likely be included in any such reasoning, but without the deal I would have arguably NEVER reached galleons, and without Galleons, I can't do anything vs Commodore. And without ACTING VS COMMODORE ... anything else is pointless, as no matter what I do vs Gavagai/Donovan/Elkad, Commodore still wins.
I sold HAK two cities (one of which is now destroyed) for about 800 gold, more or less. I bumped it by about 300 gold in an offer of temporary military alliance. HAK countered with 400 gold or so, plus lots and LOTS of resources, for my source of Marble. I assumed that by selling the Marble, it was ALSO a declaration of temporary alliance vs Commodore.
Again, that the Map is NOT toroidal is one of the primary reasons for my actions.
#1. Krill said that the game has been a farce since it was launched, due to it not being Toroidal. This was my first pique of interest into Pitboss 25.
#2. When Krill was looking for a take-over person, he agreed that the game was not a true competition (the most likely reason being that it isn't Toroidal)
#3. I'm in the MIDDLE of the map. This led to the previous leaders of the Zulu to outright QUIT.
The reason people don't like playing in the middle is because it NEEDS diplomacy to survive such a situation. There is absolutely NO WAY I can win without helping people against other people, ETCETERA in order to slowly make my nation stronger.
It simply ISNT POSSIBLE (in my opinion) to win from the middle, without some sort of impossible hail mary play.
How do you pull a hail mary? If you have read Sulla's reports, you can look at the DEMO GAME, which I love to read btw ... in it, the #1 team QUIT, thus giving the game, by default, to the #2 civ, with the help of a third party.
Now, in the DEMO GAME, there were only TWO contenders. The third party in this case was a non entity. In fact, it was Sulla that GIFTED a galleon to the third party, bc he had none iirc.
In this game there are many contenders, in my opinion. If Commodore is knocked down a peg, I don't think that he will be 'out of the running' necessarily, but it will open up the game to Zulu, HAK, Donovan Zoi, (Gavagai?), and possibly Retep.
IMHO, myself, Donovan Zoi, and Retep have truly the MOST to gain from a devastated Inca-land. That HAK has ostensibly the most to gain from Commodore dying is a Red Herring, imho, because they have a similarly vulnerable geo-political situation. Therefore I have THREE major hopes for this game.
#1. I hope that, if a City or two of Commodore's falls, Retep will join in on a Dog Pile
#2. I hope that Donovan Zoi keeps the 'truce' with moi, and helps me kick Commodore off of our Continent.
#3. I hope that HAK stops bugging Gavagai, and focuses completely on Commodore. (I have multiple, MULTIPLE trades with both of them) -> Ergo a status quo between the two would greatly be beneficial to myself.
#3.B -> That Gavagai never decides to come after me ..... eh.
As you can see, my situation is impossibly hopeless, so I have to hope against hope that I can STILL WIN THIS THING.
Therefore, my only hope is to attempt, as best I can, to form coalitions to help even the playing field, and to keep the game going on for longer, and longer, and longer. This will help all non-leader-civs increase their chances of reaching a victory condition. Therefore, I am 'hoping' that they will somehow get the 'hint' to cooperate vs leaders
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In returning to the City trade, I've already explained my face-value reasons for the trade (HAK helps me defend the island vs Commodore OSTENSIBLY!!!! and I get gold for Galleons)
Currently, HAK hasn't made any considerable moves to help defend the Island .... although Alexandria is well defended, I don't really know WHY except that its the better city. Only other reason would be that he doesn't trust me to NOT simply invade and retake the city. But that would cancel my gold income .... so IMHO he should have relied on the power of COIN, and should have moved the majority of his defenses to Thebes.
Ultimately, HAK either deemed Thebes as losable, or thought his defenses there were sufficient, OR he supposed that I would defend his cities for him ....
As a temporary ally, if I had realized the city was threatened, I most likely would have helped him to defend it, being fully honest here ... but I wasn't exactly 100% willing to just garrison HIS cities with MY soldiers, especially when I needed soldiers elsewhere, and, imho, it was a fair trade.
IF, lets just say, I was just wanting to 100% help HAK, or w/e .... then I'd have left my OWN cities mostly empty, and would have garrisoned my units in HIS cities. I probably would have also gifted MORE cities. I mean sure, Alexandria was a good unit producer, but I considered faster Galleons to be worth more than, say, a few extra Xbows or Knights or w/e. Granted, having more Caravels would be really nice .... but Galleys frekkin suck, while Galleons are awesome.
Ultimately though? FUN is my motivation for anything in a GAME. This isn't a RAGE QUIT (like Elkad) or anything, I'm still having fun with the game and I believed it was a FAIR trade, NOT an abuse.
ELKAD on the other hand, declared war on his other two neighbors when he saw me INVADE him. If we are talking in terms of 'perceived fairness' then the person that has done most of the heavy lifting in the war (THE ZULU) should have gotten most of the cities from Elkad. That Commodore and Donovan got the MOST out of the war is considerably annoying. Or rather, it *would* have been annoying if I hadn't seen it coming from a mile away. Still, I don't see how his actions are any MORE justifiable than my own actions. Meanwhile you have a game like Pitboss 18 ... with GREAT ARTIST gifts to a cultural contender, and ALUMINUM gifts to a space race contender.
Seriously .... the only reason 25 is even CONSIDERED controversial is b/c it involves cities ... something HIGHLY uncommon here at RB lately. Because it is considered 'strange' and 'different' it is, somehow, a worse offense. Arguably even Elkad's actions have not even a TENTH of the game-impact as BGN (aluminum) and Joey/Krill (artists) had on 18.
That GermanJoey(or any 'kingmaker' offender from 18) is criticizing my actions in this game is almost laughable, if you consider it from an outside perspective (and look at the Utilitarian outcomes of my decisions here, and compare it to the player actions in pb18).
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In the final analysis, it is a game, and I feel that no one has 'intended' to 'be a jerk' or any such thing, and that there really isn't any place for animosity on any side here. (or there). I know that we have to look at the big picture for MAKING RULES for the new Pitboss ... and that we must always strive for fairness ....
Therefore, I'm actually a proponent of BANNING city gifts altogether, IF it makes people less angry over (reasonable deals). The fact raised by the 27 thread is still valid, that people will always argue over what is considered abuse, and what is not considered abuse. Often such judgements are ONLY made subjectively, and realizing this is VERY IMPORTANT when coming up with a new rule set.
Sure giving up Alexandria was, in some ways, a HUGE sacrifice ... but it was worth it. The City Trade has INCREASED my Victory probability, in every conceivable arena.
----> If one can argue that not going through with the trade would have increased my chances for total victory .... I'd like to see your reasoning. Land = Power is certainly a relevant component, and will likely be included in any such reasoning, but without the deal I would have arguably NEVER reached galleons, and without Galleons, I can't do anything vs Commodore. And without ACTING VS COMMODORE ... anything else is pointless, as no matter what I do vs Gavagai/Donovan/Elkad, Commodore still wins.
I sold HAK two cities (one of which is now destroyed) for about 800 gold, more or less. I bumped it by about 300 gold in an offer of temporary military alliance. HAK countered with 400 gold or so, plus lots and LOTS of resources, for my source of Marble. I assumed that by selling the Marble, it was ALSO a declaration of temporary alliance vs Commodore.
Again, that the Map is NOT toroidal is one of the primary reasons for my actions.
#1. Krill said that the game has been a farce since it was launched, due to it not being Toroidal. This was my first pique of interest into Pitboss 25.
#2. When Krill was looking for a take-over person, he agreed that the game was not a true competition (the most likely reason being that it isn't Toroidal)
#3. I'm in the MIDDLE of the map. This led to the previous leaders of the Zulu to outright QUIT.
The reason people don't like playing in the middle is because it NEEDS diplomacy to survive such a situation. There is absolutely NO WAY I can win without helping people against other people, ETCETERA in order to slowly make my nation stronger.
It simply ISNT POSSIBLE (in my opinion) to win from the middle, without some sort of impossible hail mary play.
How do you pull a hail mary? If you have read Sulla's reports, you can look at the DEMO GAME, which I love to read btw ... in it, the #1 team QUIT, thus giving the game, by default, to the #2 civ, with the help of a third party.
Now, in the DEMO GAME, there were only TWO contenders. The third party in this case was a non entity. In fact, it was Sulla that GIFTED a galleon to the third party, bc he had none iirc.
In this game there are many contenders, in my opinion. If Commodore is knocked down a peg, I don't think that he will be 'out of the running' necessarily, but it will open up the game to Zulu, HAK, Donovan Zoi, (Gavagai?), and possibly Retep.
IMHO, myself, Donovan Zoi, and Retep have truly the MOST to gain from a devastated Inca-land. That HAK has ostensibly the most to gain from Commodore dying is a Red Herring, imho, because they have a similarly vulnerable geo-political situation. Therefore I have THREE major hopes for this game.
#1. I hope that, if a City or two of Commodore's falls, Retep will join in on a Dog Pile
#2. I hope that Donovan Zoi keeps the 'truce' with moi, and helps me kick Commodore off of our Continent.
#3. I hope that HAK stops bugging Gavagai, and focuses completely on Commodore. (I have multiple, MULTIPLE trades with both of them) -> Ergo a status quo between the two would greatly be beneficial to myself.
#3.B -> That Gavagai never decides to come after me ..... eh.
As you can see, my situation is impossibly hopeless, so I have to hope against hope that I can STILL WIN THIS THING.
Therefore, my only hope is to attempt, as best I can, to form coalitions to help even the playing field, and to keep the game going on for longer, and longer, and longer. This will help all non-leader-civs increase their chances of reaching a victory condition. Therefore, I am 'hoping' that they will somehow get the 'hint' to cooperate vs leaders
----------------------
In returning to the City trade, I've already explained my face-value reasons for the trade (HAK helps me defend the island vs Commodore OSTENSIBLY!!!! and I get gold for Galleons)
Currently, HAK hasn't made any considerable moves to help defend the Island .... although Alexandria is well defended, I don't really know WHY except that its the better city. Only other reason would be that he doesn't trust me to NOT simply invade and retake the city. But that would cancel my gold income .... so IMHO he should have relied on the power of COIN, and should have moved the majority of his defenses to Thebes.
Ultimately, HAK either deemed Thebes as losable, or thought his defenses there were sufficient, OR he supposed that I would defend his cities for him ....
As a temporary ally, if I had realized the city was threatened, I most likely would have helped him to defend it, being fully honest here ... but I wasn't exactly 100% willing to just garrison HIS cities with MY soldiers, especially when I needed soldiers elsewhere, and, imho, it was a fair trade.
IF, lets just say, I was just wanting to 100% help HAK, or w/e .... then I'd have left my OWN cities mostly empty, and would have garrisoned my units in HIS cities. I probably would have also gifted MORE cities. I mean sure, Alexandria was a good unit producer, but I considered faster Galleons to be worth more than, say, a few extra Xbows or Knights or w/e. Granted, having more Caravels would be really nice .... but Galleys frekkin suck, while Galleons are awesome.
Ultimately though? FUN is my motivation for anything in a GAME. This isn't a RAGE QUIT (like Elkad) or anything, I'm still having fun with the game and I believed it was a FAIR trade, NOT an abuse.
ELKAD on the other hand, declared war on his other two neighbors when he saw me INVADE him. If we are talking in terms of 'perceived fairness' then the person that has done most of the heavy lifting in the war (THE ZULU) should have gotten most of the cities from Elkad. That Commodore and Donovan got the MOST out of the war is considerably annoying. Or rather, it *would* have been annoying if I hadn't seen it coming from a mile away. Still, I don't see how his actions are any MORE justifiable than my own actions. Meanwhile you have a game like Pitboss 18 ... with GREAT ARTIST gifts to a cultural contender, and ALUMINUM gifts to a space race contender.
Seriously .... the only reason 25 is even CONSIDERED controversial is b/c it involves cities ... something HIGHLY uncommon here at RB lately. Because it is considered 'strange' and 'different' it is, somehow, a worse offense. Arguably even Elkad's actions have not even a TENTH of the game-impact as BGN (aluminum) and Joey/Krill (artists) had on 18.
That GermanJoey(or any 'kingmaker' offender from 18) is criticizing my actions in this game is almost laughable, if you consider it from an outside perspective (and look at the Utilitarian outcomes of my decisions here, and compare it to the player actions in pb18).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In the final analysis, it is a game, and I feel that no one has 'intended' to 'be a jerk' or any such thing, and that there really isn't any place for animosity on any side here. (or there). I know that we have to look at the big picture for MAKING RULES for the new Pitboss ... and that we must always strive for fairness ....
Therefore, I'm actually a proponent of BANNING city gifts altogether, IF it makes people less angry over (reasonable deals). The fact raised by the 27 thread is still valid, that people will always argue over what is considered abuse, and what is not considered abuse. Often such judgements are ONLY made subjectively, and realizing this is VERY IMPORTANT when coming up with a new rule set.
