Pitboss 18 Lurker Thread of Infinite Wisdom

[Azza]

So, what makes selling an artist worse than, say, my invasion of Azza way back when? I could have made FinHarry pay a good deal more to own a continent if I weren't more focused on making Azza lose. I bet I could have delayed their eventual spaceship by two turns. Am I a kingmaker too?

Edit: Is it that important who is the actual 'winner', anyway? I know my impression is that it was an epic game, and all of TBS, FinHarry, and Boldly have earned a lot of respect from me. Well, all the survivors, really, but those three in particular.

I agree 100% with this.

[GermanJoey]

I already answered that, just play your game without ruining it for the players who still have a chance to win it. If you're not willing to do that then maybe it's better to resign. A number of your fellow players were able to play out the string without tipping the outcome in favor of one rival or another.

You did not answer, you just continued to assert "Just play your game and do your best. " which doesn't mean an actual fucking thing. This empty finger-wagging is really starting to piss me off. Ok, you wouldn't trade the artist, but the artist was a drop in the bucket by that point compared to things like "stopping BGN from moving through my territory" or "dtay gifting coal and wardeccing the Aztecs" or "Krill doing Krillthings". I am asking you directly: if you were in control of my civ and were engaged with the game (as I was), what would you have done that you would consider as being fair, engaged, and yet not "ruining the game" for another frontrunner, in this case TBS, BGN, or OH+FT? I mean specifics, e.g. "On T225, after consolidating X Y and Z, I could attacked ..." or "I think the best thing to do would be to beeline ...". What would you have done Xenu? And I mean, literally you, who seemed to take 2 hour turns on the regular for a 11 city empire. What would you do with 50 cities and a long cold-war front with hundreds of enemy units positioned in attacking range that is in your mind morally correct? Would you have liked it if I invaded BGN? I had the opportunity to hurt him really bad but I decided to let him finish out the game in peace. More assholishness from me? Rememer, my point of view is that I could either do nothing or I could do something, but doing something always affects someone somehow. Your point of view is that there is a "something" that I'm not seeing that I could have done instead. And which other players are you talking about? Sounds to me just like more smoke that you're trying to blow up my ass.

By the way, if you're just thinking of little projects, I had my little projects. I'm interested in knowing what you'd do beyond that. But, I railroaded every single tile in my empire. I hit a specific score target with optimized research/wealth builds and microed my cities to maximal size. I hit an army size target. I built every single national wonder and half of the modern-era wonders. I built factories+coal plants in every city I could. I stole back specific contested tiles from BGN and sent airships all over the damn map. But, this is all nothing, just stuff to do to motivate myself to stay engaged with taking the turn, not real decisions about what my civ should do. Interestingly, I also outlived you, and also spent a far greater amount of time and effort on this game than you.

The fact you can go on and on and on about how horrible I am and yet when I ask you again and again and again "what should I do / what should I have done" you can't come up with anything just proves that you want to badmouth me to badmouth me. That is, that you're straight-up full of shit. Ok, you wouldn't have traded the artist. What else? The artist was just a drop in the bucket, something I accidentally spawned that was completely useless to me. I couldn't even bulb it into a complete-able tech... but I could trade it to get 2250 gold out of it, turning it into more score via tech (one of my goals) as well as a tech that I was hoping to have some fun with (specifically, the tech was Fission, which I completed with the help of a GS bulb, which I wanted on the minute chance I could get uranium via a random event that is only triggered by having Fission as a prerequisite, with which I was then going to use the UN to pass a Ban Nukes resolution - For The Lulz, of course). Or, I could just delete it, or pointlessly bomb Hastee Tastee to get back zero tiles, or whatever. I chose the gold because it helped one of my little projects just a little bit. However, if you thought the artist trade was bullshit, you should have brought that up with one of us during the time it was discussed. You're even the one who noticed the incoming artist first! These turns only rolled what, every 3-4 days? I'm rolling my eyes at you so fucking hard. Bringing this shit up now is just a way you think you can get a cheap shot in on a guy you don't like because I gave a hard time to some people that you do a few months ago.

Nor does any of this mean that TBS didn't win on his own merits - and you obviously don't think he did, or else you wouldn't bring that up. That's just more bullshit that you can cheaply throw out there to spoil the end of this game a little bit. It's not like this is the first Great Person deal in RB Civ4 history. So this helped him win the game - what the fuck do you think people use great persons for, Xenu? Do you think someone needing a 5th great person for a MoM GA wants to buy a great artist to give them a sensual back massage? When Gaspar bought great scientists off of dtay in PB19 (a game I mention because you adminned it) for chump change, what did you think he would do with them? I also don't think I'm at fault for "ruining" anything for TBS at all; first of all, *he* proposed the artist deal, not me, (but of course, the artist trade is completely and 100% my doing because I'm a poor sport ), second of all, if he had just offered the gold straight-up (which is not an "illegal" deal) I would have understood what he was proposing far more clearly (which I menition in the thread), and third of all, if there any decision against him winning the game *because* of this single stupid artist deal almost a month after it took place it is completely beyond bullshit. Do they replay pro sports games a month later because someone noticed on a slow-motion replay that a referee missed calling an important foul in the last 60 seconds of a game? No, they complain about the ref and then move on. OH+FT/BGN have every right to bitch about y'all not stepping up to enforce the rule in this instance but what's done is done and there is no fucking way anyone is replaying the last month of turns. I absolutely refuse. Perahps you can log in for me and show me how you would play it out according to Truth And Justice.

By the way, regarding plako: seems fairly clear that plako took the path of least resistance. Again, that was one of the only two real options Myself/Krill/dtay/WilliamLP/AT/Molach had: do nothing or do something. plako's one desire was to keep his island intact yet didn't want to spend real time on a losing war, as he was way, way weaker than any of his neighbors by the endgame. So, he chose to do nothing. That was also something I considered, when I thought about attacking AT. I thought it would be rude to waste his time on bullshit that didn't matter.

[BRickAstley]

This is starting to get into personal attack territory, so yall should drop it and calm down before it gets worse.

[Fintourist]

if there any decision against him winning the game *because* of this single stupid artist deal almost a month after it took place it is completely beyond bullshit. Do they replay pro sports games a month later because someone noticed on a slow-motion replay that a referee missed calling an important foul in the last 60 seconds of a game? No, they complain about the ref and then move on

No, but if an athlete is caught up using doping one month after a game then appropriate measures are taken.

Note: Not comparing TBS to a doping athlete. Simply responding to the GJ analogy.

[Krill]

You know even the lurkers cheated right?

[WilliamLP]

Note: Not comparing TBS to a doping athlete.

If you're not, then I am. What is he injecting to be so good and where can I get some?

[spacetyrantxenu]

I don't have the time or energy to reply to all of that. I'm not trying to personally attack you, I just didn't like your actions at the end of the game and thought it could have been handled more fairly. Just because other players did things that similarly may have been unfair doesn't excuse anyone else. If I'm not pounding the table about what dtay, TBS, OH, Krill, or whoever else may or may not have done anything wrong, so what? Maybe I missed those things, maybe it wasn't as flagrant, maybe I just don't care at this point.

So, my reply then. What would I have done? Secure the borders so I wouldn't lose cities, then if I have enough power, time, interest, etc., mount another campaign to gain more cities. That either means south into plako or east into AT. You were bigger than both of them, you probably could have managed that if you hadn't helped necessitate such significant resources being required to tie down your HAK gains. I don't think your diplomacy with BGN at that point was very helpful to your position, nor was his to you for that matter.

I don't think your points about how I play my turns are relevant to the conversation. I play slow turns because it is how I play. That's not a factor in this discussion. If I had a larger empire I'd play it in the same amount of time, because that's how much time I allocate to playing the game. So if I had 50 cities I'd still spend an hour or two on it, like when I had 11. This is immaterial.

By the way, people will take you more seriously when responding to the things you say if you say them in a way that's less offensive and more constructive. So I'm skipping over a lot of that post, because yeah I'm totally blowing smoke.

I don't really care about your projects, if it amused you to railroad all your land, or build the wonders, or capture tiles, that's great. I'm glad you were still having fun. That's nothing to do with doing things that impact the outcome of the game, though. And good job outliving me! What's the relevance to the discussion? It appears to be a subtle swipe at me, but no worries, I'm not at all bothered by being conquered. I'm guessing most players in my spot would have eventually died in that position. Or I'm a tier six player and squandered an amazing position, I'm OK with that too. Bygones! Congrats on living to the end.

I wasn't badmouthing you, if you want to see my work in that regard go back and read some of my old posts from back in the day. I used to be a real asshole on this forum. Or maybe you still think I am, but that's OK. As to your questions, what else would I have not done? I wouldn't have gifted gold to TBS, or a lot of units, or provide any of the other material aid you provided him while you tried to help him win. That wasn't sporting of you to do it. Yes, dtay provided coal to him, BGN provided aluminium to OH, and Krill did a lot of questionable things all over the map, including that one frigate gift to me that apparently irked you so much. Those things are all worthy of discussion but you can't hold me personally responsible for those actions, or not stopping them, because it isn't up to me to do or say something about everything. We're supposed to be self-moderating around here, so someone else could have done something, not just me. If you're mad that I'm focusing on you, well, so what? Yours were the actions I felt most strongly about, so I posted about them. As for bringing that fight to you in your thread, well you can see how cordial this current discussion is. Imagine if I was in your thread telling you you were in violation of the rules. I expect you'd have embraced the message, right? No? Right. Also, I'm not the admin of this game (as if we should have needed one), and we discussed it in the lurker thread. Anyone who read that discussion could have done something if they chose. But no, me mentioning it at the end of the game when your artist was just used as the final bomb to win the game totally isn't merited, you're right. I'm really just trying to take a cheap shot on you because I don't like you, because you gave a hard time to some people I like a few months ago. That's definitely more likely, and more in character for me.

Actually, if you read what I wrote, I specifically said I thought TBS could have won on his own. Though, interestingly, in his thread he said he wasn't so sure, so what do I know? What I said is that your actions led to a debate about what he could or couldn't have done, and for someone's win to be cheapened with an asterisk (or doubt) is unfortunate. That is what I said.

As for blaming you...what does it matter if he initiated the trade or you did? You were both wrong in my opinion. You spawned the artist so you had control of doing the transaction. You could have refused, you just didn't see the need. And no, I'm not in favor of rolling the clock back, it's too late at this point and I don't think anyone really has any interest in replaying any turns. It's over. If you want to know how I'd have played your endgame it's pretty simple. I wouldn't have gifted units, gold, or artists to someone about to win a cultural victory. Non-interference, that's fair to all the players. Taking sides, that's not fair. I don't see why this is so hard to accept.

Yes, looks like plako was playing out the string, as did a number of other players. It's commendable, playing on when the game isn't that interesting anymore. So, since they all did it so well without any apparent adverse effects on the competition, I give a (real!) salute to plako, WilliamLP, AT, and Molach for continuing on when there wasn't much else left to do. Thank you for playing your turns and not spoiling the game. To the others, thanks for honestly trying to win the game, or trying not to interfere...or if you did interfere, for not doing it more, or....thanks for playing.

Oh, and your consideration for AT's time is admirable. It's really great that you didn't waste his time with a pointless endgame war while you were trying to nullify the efforts of everyone else who was still trying to win. That's really great!

I don't intend to reply to anything else on this particular issue. This was a great game, I'd rather leave it at that and not continue with this conversation because you and I obviously disagree and won't reconciled on these points. And I'm still not mad.

[spacetyrantxenu]

You know even the lurkers cheated right?

Yup, I double moved you. Which isn't even remotely relevant since it wasn't a real war. Saying "even the lurkers cheated" is pretty disingenuous and in no way is a justification for anything any other players may or may not have done. But I know you're just trying to achieve Ichabod/retep levels of troll, you'll have to step up your game to become Tier 1 in their league.

[Krill]

Xenu, I'll stop you right there:

So, my reply then. What would I have done? Secure the borders so I wouldn't lose cities, then if I have enough power, time, interest, etc., mount another campaign to gain more cities.

That would have opened up the map for BGN to attack Joey and TBS. You can't have it both ways and right now all you are showing is your bias. I don't know why you can't accept that whatever Plako, Joey or myself did we were affecting who would win.

[Krill]

Hell I even threatened to gift a GA to TBS to make sure no one attacked me in the last few turns of the game. TBS paid for that first GA, what I'd have done was even worse. Doesn't make it an invalid tactic though and that would have caused outrage.