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[PB29 Spoiler] In which Joey, then mackoti, swing happy go lucky

Here's some thoughts about openings. After this, we can get back to our regularly scheduled Player/Combo reviews. wink

Fish Opening
Option 1 is the workboat start. It was used by Haram, Fennbandit, and Dreylin. All three have the productive trait.

The 1/3 ivory tile and the 2 hammer capital plant let us get the workboat out in 6 turns, coincidentally the same exact time that it takes to research Fishing!

The big advantage here is that we get a 5f tile like 9T before its possible to hook up the wheat. So, let's see what that gets us. Build the WB -> grow until size 2, selecting Hunting as our next tech to improve our scout's movement.




So, now we're size 2 on T10, the same turn the other two options finish their first worker. Not bad. The next thing we need is a worker; even if an immediate settler was the best option (and it is not), we wouldn't be able to have our new city work improved cities unless there's another good seafood spot nearby - and there's not. But, since we're size 2 and working 2 decent tiles, we at least finish the worker pretty quickly.




Worker is out T17, and starts farming. While we're waiting, we'll start putting hammers into our settler.

After the farm is done, we grow to size 3. This is worthwhile because the wheat is essentially a 7 yield tile, as Imp gives us an extra +1 hammer.




As you can see, we've already build half of our settler!




And our settler is out T27:




This opening is strictly inferior for a non-Pro civ, and so this is as far as I'm going to take this option for us. A Pro civ does pretty much the exact same thing, except they save two turns, one for each the worker and the workboat. A Productive civ needs to start with Fishing to be able to instantly work the fish, which makes Haram's situation interesting; I think we he ends up doing is just putting an extra turn into the worker at size 1.

Seven essentially fixed the big problem with seafood starts in ToW by allowing you to build workboats before you have Fishing. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that seafood-first is always the best way to go. For this start, it turns out both worker-first options are superior to this because they can essentially improve their food resources in parallel.

Ivory Opening

This opening is a bit weird. The only player who chose it was "Scipio," and it is pretty reminiscent of his opening in PB20. It needs Imperialistic to be worth it, but it is the fastest way to open. Dreylin *should* have used this opening as it is INSANE with Imp/Pro.

First of all, you need to pick start Hunting/Mining (such as Khmer, Germany, Ethiopia, or Russia), and then you start with worker first, choosing BW as your first tech:




Once your worker is done, send him to the ivory and tell him to Camp. Immediately start on a settler! yikes Working the unimproved ivory is worth 8hpt for now, which is not bad. BW is done in 5 turns.




Once the ivory is improved, we get a whopping 10hpt! Move the worker 2N1E to the trees; start chopping next turn. Moving the worker here requires knowledge of the deer tile; if the deer tile does not exist, you instead want to move the worker 1E to chop there instead.




The chop finishes the settler 2T early, on T18, and generates a huge amount of overflow. Make sure you're researching fishing, because that's all going into a workboat!




We revolt into slavery T19, and then plant at the deer. The fact that this spot gets an auto-trade rout is very important; this opening is very beaker-poor in general, and will end up getting The Wheel late. If we don't get a trade route now, we likely wouldn't get one until after T40ish - a loss of about 40beakers.

Depending on where copper is, there might be a better spot available - I'm just going to settle based on what I can see for now though.

In the new city, we immediately start a new worker, while the existing worker is sent along with the settler to start a camp. Meanwhile, the capital continues to build its workboat.




T24, our fish is hooked and we start growing the capital to size 2. At size 2, we'll start the settler for our 3rd city.




Even with the camp, our 2nd worker comes out slow. We'll use a chop to speed it along.







Next, these two workers are both sent to the capital to start chopping at these two spots, to help finish the settler:




Our settler comes out T34, and we start on yet another settler while Worker A and Worker B start farming. Our settler heads towards the NW, to the twin-cow spot, as our workers will be in the best position to help from there.







Meanwhile, Oporto grew up to size 2 and then whipped a 3rd worker on T38:




And here we are on T41:




Totals for T42 (the turn after this screenshot):
  • 34 cities, 5 pop, 5 improvements, 3 workers, 2 warriors, 2 roads, slavery
  • 3Fishing, Hunting, Mining, The Wheel, Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, 76b into Pottery
  • -3 trees


Wheat Opening

Starting from T10, where our worker appears:




Our first two techs were Hunting -> Agriculture, same as in the real game. Work the 1/3 for 4 turns, then switch to the wheat once its ready. You grow to size 2 and finish the work boat at the same time. smile




Bam, now immediately grow to size 3. The worker heads over to the ivory and improves that.




At size 3, we start the settler, gaining 17hpt!! Meanwhile, the worker starts roading to the southeast:




So that we can plant the city on T27, the exact same turn the settler is done! This turns out to be only 1 turn slower than starting a settler immediately at size 2, and we have a lot more to show for ourselves.




BW comes on T33, the exact same time our 3rd settler is ready. So, we revolt. Yadayada, we end up with:




Totals T42:
  • 4 cities, 7 pop, 5 improvements, 3 workers, 2 warriors, 2 roads, slavery
  • 1 granary fishing
  • Fishing, Hunting, Mining, The Wheel, Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, 56 beakers into Mysticism
  • -1 trees

Foodhammer wise, we end up about equal to the chopping-first strategy, despite having 1-2 less workers available for quite awhile! Suprised? Its because a.) we get high-value improvements online more quickly in this opening and because b.) our workers waste less time chopping. Chopping early can be very powerful but you should remember that it has an opportunity cost. Every turn that a resource lies fallow, unimproved or unworked, you are leaving foodhammers on the table. Chopping trees into workers that go on to just chop more trees can actually worse than useless. Remember that your trees aren't going anywhere; only chop when you have some specific build that you want to come out faster.

This opening also end up with a considerable beaker advantage; about half of this is because we start with TW instead of Hunting, but we also end up working the fish for longer. The result of this is that we also have more stray hammers going into Granaries rather than warriors and workers; not that warriors are bad builds early, but, in general, the faster you can get Granaries up, the better. We can also put the extra beakers into early archery; if copper ends up appearing under one of our cities, screwing up our warrior builds, we can just easily grab Archery for our UU without delaying Granaries.

That's not to say the Ivory-opening is definitely worse than this. First of all, it gets to see copper super early, and can thus adjust its settling pattern to grab it. Copper is also a very nice 6 yield tile; if it's in a nice spot, we can have a city pump Settlers at size 1. I wonder if Scipio is expecting BFC copper again, like PB20?
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Horse reveal is next turn - lets hope it's somewhere good!
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Yes, that's the only one.
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http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.ga...val_37.mp3
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You should be able to reach that with your third city.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
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Bastard map maker is bastard
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Why ruin the #3 rule of RB?
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
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(October 14th, 2015, 18:53)Krill Wrote: Why ruin the #3 rule of RB?

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Clearly, this is a big favor Krill is doing me, to prevent me from repeating my mistake in PB20. nod
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I'm 99% sure now that the map features mirrored starting areas. First there was the very similar starts from many of the players, and on top of that my NW and SE look like they overlap into the same tiles; the coast and jungle are identical there. There's even the bannas! Interesting. My guess as to how the map looks is something like this:




Essentially, we all have mirrored starting zones connected by thin strips of land on a single continent, and then we have some sort of islands between us. I have no idea if the islands are mirrored, although horse at the very least better be mirrored!

That leads into copper speculation. Scipio, who, if you read my post on openings at the top of the page, was speculated to have a T18 settler, didn't actually plant his first city until T22, last turn. I tried a few different micro plans to see if there was any possible reason his settler would be delayed coming out of the city, but couldn't find one that made sense, with also considering that I know that he definitely got BW as his first tech due to his first score increase coming at T15. Thus, he wouldn't have another worker tech ready in time for the worker to do anything else. So, I think he did get a T18 settler and then just spent 3 turns moving. This might possibly be due to barbarian interference, but that seems to me to be pretty unlikely on fucking T18 if he didn't lose his scout stupidly. So, lets assume he spent 3T moving because he thought the best spot was farther away. So where the hell did he move to?

My guesses:




Tiles enclosed in yellow are possible settlement sites; white question marks are possible copper tile candidates; circled white question marks are more likely copper tile candidates; and finally, pink stars are the more likely settlement sites.

First of all, I don't think there's any spot within the 3T range that's better than settling next to the deer on T20 deer unless the other spot also has copper. All these other spots either 2nd-ring fish or pastures as food sources, both of which he ain't gonna be hookin' up any time soon. Next, tiles other than those marked can be ruled out of consideration because they either can be settled more quickly than T22 or would take longer than T22. I also think that copper won't be under a tree, considering that horse is over the water. Also worth considering is that we don't have a ton of land in our starting zone, so it wouldn't make sense to waste a ton of coast by settling 1 away from the cost. Finally, notice that all visible resources are non-adjacent to each other. So, that leads me to conclude that copper is most likely in one of the two NW circled question marks, and that Scipio settled on one of the two NW pink stars. The eastern pink star is also a possibility, as spices wouldn't necessarily "count" as a real resource.

Anyways, we'll find out in 10T. Both of those western spots suck ass though, so if copper is indeed over there I might just settle for the deer third city and then get Archery before Pottery.
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