Gavagai manages his personal GULAG

[Old Harry]

Exactly. So dropping behind someone a few turns in advance can only hurt the turn timer, right?

[GermanJoey]

Well, that is true, but its still a timer game to do otherwise... I dunno. A grey area, I guess.

[Old Harry]

Eh? Playing after someone else to get the right half is a timer game. Waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double move you is the opposite, surely?

[GermanJoey]

It's still a timer game, yes, but you're not jumping on them immediately. The split for the war is still defined from the turn before war is declared, which is the ideal situation.

[Old Harry]

I don't understand why?

[GermanJoey]

So there's no turn fuckery right around the war? I don't think its right to try to specifically game a particular half of the timer in the first place, but, if you're gonna do, it you should at least try to make it seamless by doing it in peacetime. If you "let" someone double move right before you declare war, and they don't know you're about to attack, this is essentially stealing from them one turn that they'd have expected to have to respond to an attack, had the turn order proceeded as under ordinary circumstances, even though they technically played twice before you did. Hell, they might even be moving units in the opposite direction! For example, if Barteq is indeed attacking Grimace and claims first half of T81, and then Grimace responds by moving all his defenders north, now Gavagai has a huge advantage by claiming the latter third.

This was the same issue in PB22 w/ the second Adrien/REM war, and I remember we argued about it then too, although that was extra bad because they did the double-move rather than letting me double-move first.

[Gavagai]

that was extra bad because they did the double-move rather than letting me double-move first.

Don't remember that one. Double moving immeditely before the start of the war should be straight up illegal, of course.

[The Black Sword]

Eh? Playing after someone else to get the right half is a timer game. Waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double move you is the opposite, surely?

Waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double move you = Playing after someone else to get the right half.

They're both the exact same thing, except one is for a number of turns and the other is on the final turn. They're both timer games and should be frowned on IMO. If everybody tries to get the second half the game crawls to a halt.

That said, the double moves rules in this game are pretty clear, waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double-move you is allowed. It would also be preferable than trying to match up multiple turns in advance because that slows the game down even more.

[Bacchus]

On the dotmap: if Borzoi comes with 4+ population, we can't really afford to raze it. The horse city we might have to raze. Alternatively, there are still forests in both places, and we can get a couple of missionaries out to spread religion as soon as revolt is over. With OR, 1 chop is enough for a monument even without maths, and with +2 culture the first-ring issues aren't quite so painful. The thing with the horse city is that it is just fine long term, great river grassland expanse.

On the timer: if we and Grimace are the last to play, we should play whenever we get the chance, I get really pissed off at people who log in and don't take turns when only a few are left to play.

[Old Harry]

So there's no turn fuckery right around the war? I don't think its right to try to specifically game a particular half of the timer in the first place, but, if you're gonna do, it you should at least try to make it seamless by doing it in peacetime.

Eh? Playing after someone else to get the right half is a timer game. Waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double move you is the opposite, surely?

Waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double move you = Playing after someone else to get the right half.

They're both the exact same thing, except one is for a number of turns and the other is on the final turn. They're both timer games and should be frowned on IMO. If everybody tries to get the second half the game crawls to a halt.

I must be misunderstanding, because you have to have a turn order in non-sequential pitboss and there are huge advantages to going second (as I know TBS - I regretted not asking to switch back in PB18). You can't possibly be saying turn order should be random - are you saying it should be based on time zone and play window?

As far as I'm aware, when this has been debated on RB the consensus was that attacking is hard enough in CIV as it is, so the aggressor should get to choose which split they want as long as it doesn't involve double moving. I brought it up in civ general here and everyone seemed fine with my suggestion that you play your turn as soon as you are able at all times, but when you want to go to war you should feel free to drop behind the opponent one or two turns before you declare or on the turn you declare.

If you "let" someone double move right before you declare war, and they don't know you're about to attack, this is essentially stealing from them one turn that they'd have expected to have to respond to an attack, had the turn order proceeded as under ordinary circumstances, even though they technically played twice before you did. Hell, they might even be moving units in the opposite direction! For example, if Barteq is indeed attacking Grimace and claims first half of T81, and then Grimace responds by moving all his defenders north, now Gavagai has a huge advantage by claiming the latter third.

I'm afraid this still doesn't make sense to me - people may or may not know you are going to attack. The fact that you are or aren't sticking rigidly to a schedule shouldn't be meta information they can use to decide whether they are about to be attacked. I know in most cases it is information you can use, but I don't think that it should be. If Barteq takes first half and the defenders all move north, then Gav claims the third third, then he's made an excellent tactical move (although I still think you should try and declare on the same side to avoid 3-way turn splits, other people (eg Krill) think that you need the third turn split so you don't double-move your co-dogpiler anyway so it doesn't matter).

That said, the double moves rules in this game are pretty clear, waiting until the turn you declare and letting them double-move you is allowed. It would also be preferable than trying to match up multiple turns in advance because that slows the game down even more.

Yeah, this is the reason I prefer this rule. It's probably only a small gain, but they all add up.

This was the same issue in PB22 w/ the second Adrien/REM war, and I remember we argued about it then too, although that was extra bad because they did the double-move rather than letting me double-move first.

I wouldn't call that an argument - a couple of lurkers and I had one opinion, but TBS was the admin so it was his call. IIRC (it was a long time ago and I'm not going digging through those monster theads) REMAI had played their turn except for their stack which was poised to move in. They were about to log in to declare and get the first half of the timer when you logged in to play your turn. After you finished REM jumped in to hit enter because he thought attacking you then would have been unfair (I have no idea why). Then when they tried to attack in the first half the next turn TBS ruled that they should go second. They didn't double move you, but the turn split thing was very messy. What they should have done was declare on you the minute they logged in on the first turn, to avoid the whole mess.

(also sorry Bacchus and Gavagai for derailing your thread)

(also also - GJ and TBS - once the relevant stuff in this game has happened would you mind me copying some of this discussion into the Pitboss Etiquette thread to see if anyone else wants to chip in?)