RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Birdman]

I'm a big fan of Sulla, and a supporter of India in this dogpile. But, I don't like his recent attitude. If this were one of his solo reports, he would be talking about the moves the AI made and prepare to dig himself out. To say he may never play in of of these again sounds a little too bitter for my tastes.

[m4gill4]

Their stats- being #1 in everything and their insane GNP (not helped by the binary system) in a no tech-trading game is the main reason here. Every player said so in their own respective threads and even Sullla/Speaker themselves were bragging about how much higher their GNP was compared to everyone else.

Well I agree with this, but to take your point to it's logical conclusion, if even one other team had shown empire management skill remotely comparable to sullla, then there would have been two not one powerful empires and this dogpile would have been averted?

In that case, sullla lost the game before it even started simply by virtue of being better than everyone else!

[Kyan]

In that case, sullla lost the game before it even started simply by virtue of being better than everyone else!

Well if the best player becomes dogpiled because of 'being the best', then surely the 2nd best player becomes the new power- until they get dogpiled. Following the trend through we have a situation where the worst player is actually the best, which then immediately makes him the worst. ad infinitum.

Moving on, Speaker and Sullla are the best at empire micro-management which makes them the best SINGLE PLAYER players here. As has been pointed out by those wiser than me, their diplomacy has been shoddy. The beauty and key change of multi-player is that diplomacy. It is such a huge factor and i don't think team Spullla realised this, to their detriment.

[scooter]

In that case, sullla lost the game before it even started simply by virtue of being better than everyone else!

Civ4 Singleplayer skill != Civ4 Pitboss skill. They are a very different skillset... I view diplomacy as the most important ability of a Pitboss game, and Spullla have managed their diplomacy in this game quite badly. Sure things were stacked against them slightly, but their diplomacy is probably 80% to blame for the 5v1.

I don't like this assumption that the "best players" just get ganged up on. If they're getting ganged up on, then maybe the "best players" are not actually the best players in this context (a MP Pitboss game).

Edit: crosspost with Kyan

[Katon]

I'm a big fan of Sulla, and a supporter of India in this dogpile. But, I don't like his recent attitude. If this were one of his solo reports, he would be talking about the moves the AI made and prepare to dig himself out. To say he may never play in of of these again sounds a little too bitter for my tastes.

Has he figured out yet that the CoW predates Jowy, Nakor, and Kathlete teaming up for RBP3? It seems like quite a bit of his frustration is down to his feeling as though the dogpile is partly due to out-of-game friendships, which I think everyone agrees would be a pretty crappy thing to do. That's why Jowy's so upset about being accused of letting that teamup influence his decisions - he knows it would be out of line, so (as Jowy knows, but Sulla doesn't) he hasn't built his RBP2 diplomacy on it.

Hopefully some of the ill-feeling will go out of this whole mess once the spoilery timeline details above become common knowledge.

[Twinkletoes89]

Just to support this sentiment from Ky and scooter, I firmly believe that if Spulla had been better at diplomacy they would be much much better off.

Even if they had only got one ally in Jowy, Dantski or Nakor, this would have made a considerable difference to the current dogpile.

Their diplomacy during the Byzantine war and their 'half-hearted' attempt to court Nakor when the dogpile was on the cards made them look untrustworthy. Even now, they are offering things to everyone, blatantly trying to turn Dantski and Nakor on each other, rather than focusing on one civ and putting on the charm offensive. With Dantski and Nakor both in the war, did Spulla really think that they would get away with playing both sides?

They could have got away with being an early leader if they had the allies to back them up. Alas they did not.

[m4gill4]

I firmly believe that if Spulla had been better at diplomacy they would be much much better off.

but their diplomacy is probably 80% to blame for the 5v1.

As has been pointed out by those wiser than me, their diplomacy has been shoddy.

I can see that this is a consensus opinion which is reasonable, however I just don't see what was so "bad" about spullla's diplomatic play, or how it was really a different approach from any of the other teams. I mean, sure it's bad that they never found an ally, but it wasn't for lack of reaching out. They sent friendly messages to everyone, just like everyone else! It seems to me like more bad luck or bad circumstances than bad diplomacy. What should they have done differently that would have changed things significantly?

[antisocialmunky]

They were faux friendly and didn't really talk to people they corresponded most with like they were on the same level. Atleast that's what I felt reading them early on.

[Birdman]

I can see that this is a consensus opinion which is reasonable, however I just don't see what was so "bad" about spullla's diplomatic play, or how it was really a different approach from any of the other teams. I mean, sure it's bad that they never found an ally, but it wasn't for lack of reaching out. They sent friendly messages to everyone, just like everyone else! It seems to me like more bad luck or bad circumstances than bad diplomacy. What should they have done differently that would have changed things significantly?

They ran the risk with their diplomacy once the COW started to form to play both ends against each other. Once they started to gel and compared notes, they realized spulla were hedging their bets. In the big picture, I can't blame them for trying anything to find an ally, but, it cost them trust when it started to come out.

[T-hawk]

Can we point to specific diplo messages from Sullla where the recipient took it as suspicious and unfriendly? We keep talking about that in general terms but I'd like to see the smoking guns.

Also, I wonder if Sullla has a reputation from the Apolyton demogame? It's well known that Realms Beyond won with a perfectly timed backstab, and Sullla's game writeup makes him known as the person most closely responsible. I wonder if that plants a seed of doubt, consciously or not, about diplomacy from Sullla?