RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Gandhi of Korea (Broker33 & plako)

[plako]

I was wondering what your thoughts were on that Whosit message?

Good question. I've been thinking about it and dicussed with Broker and there are quite a many ways to proceed. Our top candidate contains following ingredients:
* Squeeze as much value as possible from Rebels while not commiting ourselves to their cause too deeply
* Ask Spullla's opinion on this and ask how they would feel if we join "Rebels" as their agents. Note this would be just a question. I wouldn't yet commit ourselves for this arrangement

We'll start asking former Korean cities back from Whosit. He probably won't accept, but it doesn't harm to ask and gives us a starting point for the discussion

Seoul is looking nice there!

Only if it would be some 5 pop larger to work all those cottages, but I've had worker turns to throw away to build those cottages.

[plako]

My message to Whosit:

I'm glad we're back on trading table again. I'm still considering your suggestions and come back to them a bit later. However I find it hard to convince Korean people to join you as long as 2 of our former cities are under your ruling. Giving these cities back would definately give a good starting point for a future as brothers in arms.

[plako]

Message to Killer Angels:

As suspected after Dantski joined you, dogpilers have approached as to join their cause. I would much rather be in a group that doesn't contain Whosit, but our position is quite challenging. We've land border to Whosit and DMOC/Nakor and sea border towards Jowy and Kathlete and we're militarily weak. What would your opinion be, if we "join" their cause, but stay on your side behind the scenes?

Our main goal in the negotiations would be to get as much benefits from them as possible while not commiting too much on their cause. This way we could get more time to regain our strength and build up our economy while most of the other nations are warring. We could probably get guaranteed peace until turn 175-200 after which we would be ready to join publicly on your side.

The minus side would be that we would had to close borders from you and probably also Dantski and probably gift some token units to DMOC/Nakor.

So how does this sound to you?

[BobRoberts]

Cheers for the reply there!

Interesting stuff indeed...

That's often seems to be my problem 'If only I had 5 more pop'?

[plako]

It appears that I was all wrong about asking the cities back and not harming us. Whosit didn't find it that acceptable:

Having reviewed your most recent missive, I can only assume that you are not actually interested in dealing with me, otherwise you would have not made such an absurd request. The Empire will not, under any circumstances, hand over Nar Shaddaa or Ryloth; they are, and will continue to be, an integral part of the Galactic Empire. Giving these cities to Korea can never be the basis of a trading relationship.

We are willing to consider any reasonable offer that you make, and again urge you to deny the Killer Angels the benefits of your trade routes. There are many exchanges we could make that would benefit both parties, but your last request has shaken our belief that you wish to deal with us in good faith. Please prove us wrong.

[novice]

Well, it's a starting point for discussion.

[plako]

Bit of a diplomacy:

Our message to Whosit:

Our request was serious although probably more wishful thinking than reality. We of course have a fondness for our brothers who have been living under your rule. We thought that this could be a starting point for the negotations. India haven't done any harm to us and they are clearly quite powerful nation, it feels quite reckless to intimidate them unless we get a very good deal out of it. However I was bit surprised that our wishful thinking, did get such a hostile response.

I think we will remain neutral in the conflict and handle our diplomacy according to Korea's interest. We have no interest in joining alliances on either side and prefer to peacefully recover from our previous disaster. Of course if you've profitable incentives to present we can reconsider our position.

Message from Dantski (3 days ago):

Long time since we contacted each other and wondered how you were doing post war.

I would also like to tell you I have Iron available for trade if you still lack metal, I'd be interested in anything you have to offer.

We:

Nice to hear from you. We've been gradually rebuilding, but obvivously we're still far behind the rest of the pack. We lost 2 cities because of the war to Whosit.

Thank you for your offer concerning Iron. I'm very intrested in trading with you. However I had to be very cautious. All our neighbours are currently fighting against Spullla and I see that you've signed peace with India. Has this affected your relationship with the "Rebels".

Dantski:

Ok I understand your caution, Rome/HRE/Ottomans/Greece are working together at the moment, I was part of that group but not anymore. Anything you'd like me to keep to myself will be done so, incidentally I have not given Whosit any info on you nor has he asked for any.

If you have currency I'd like a GPT trade for Iron. Other possible trade ideas are welcome

Discussion with Killer Angels. 1st 3 messages from us:

As suspected after Dantski joined you, dogpilers have approached as to join their cause. I would much rather be in a group that doesn't contain Whosit, but our position is quite challenging. We've land border to Whosit and DMOC/Nakor and sea border towards Jowy and Kathlete and we're militarily weak. What would your opinion be, if we "join" their cause, but stay on your side behind the scenes?

Our main goal in the negotiations would be to get as much benefits from them as possible while not commiting too much on their cause. This way we could get more time to regain our strength and build up our economy while most of the other nations are warring. We could probably get guaranteed peace until turn 175-200 after which we would be ready to join publicly on your side.

The minus side would be that we would had to close borders from you and probably also Dantski and probably gift some token units to DMOC/Nakor.

So how does this sound to you?

I'm getting requests from left and right. Main request is to close borders from you. I can't delay desicion making much longer and your input would be very welcome.

Without your input I'll probably try to stay neutral for now and start to prepare for war that almost certainly will start on turn 150 when our NAP with Whosit ends.

I'm open for suggestions that would enable us to avoid extinction and still be useful ally to you.

I was talking to Plako and we felt I should send a note clarifying our position. English isn't his native language and sometimes messages can be misinterpreted.

Currently we have been approached by Whosit and Nakor I believe to join in their alliance against you. Mainly by closing borders with you and hampering your research ability. Also they have asked that we provide token troop support. We believe that this is just an act of desperation on their part and that our long term interest and survivability lie with nations other than those aligned with Whosit.

We did however request the cities Whosit took as a starting point of the negotiation Compelte with his expected response of Hell No.

We have 3 options facing us and would like to hear your input as to the viability of each.

1) Join the alliance against you and hope that they don't turn on us in the future which they most probably will. This would be simply to ensure short term survival in hopes of gaining an ally later in the game.
2) Play both sides against the middle. Basically act like we are helping them (possibly close borders with you) but with no intention of actually joining them and possibly gaining some benefits from them while not hampering your civ too greatly. Then in the future joining forces with you at a later date publicly.
3) Telling them to "get bent" and just assist you as well as we can now. This could of course accelerate their aggression towards us and lead to our untimely demise.

Now I generally don't lay my cards on the table like this but this is a unique situation. We have been hamstrung and need to recover. We also understand our ability to win this game ended when the Praets entered our borders. We would however like to ensure that those who were aggressors to us also fail to win the game. We feel our best long term prospects for an enjoyable game lie with a close relationship with your civilization. However we have some geographic challenges to contend with and would need support and assistance to survive long enough to help you.

Please respond as we are getting pressure from the people allied against you to join them.

Killer Angels:

Let me first apologize for not responding right away to your message from Sunday. We have been having some terrible connection issues on our end; I've been lacking Internet access in my home since Saturday, and Speaker has been traveling on the road for most of the past 48 hours. We've been able to play the turns, but just barely; you probably saw Speaker's post yesterday about requesting a Pause. It's been a crazy few days. That's no excuse for not getting back to you sooner, but you have our apologies for the delay.

Thank you for being so open with our team about your position, and the various options in front of you. We were lied to - repeatedly - by both Jowy and Nakor, so the candid relationship we've had with your team is greatly appreciated. Having some common enemies helps grease the wheels of friendship too!

Now, as for the three options you laid out in your last message:

#1 sounds like a poor option to me too. You would be the fifth wheel in this alliance, and I expect your life expectancy after Turn 150 could be measured in days. If our team and Dantski were both gone, your team would be the obvious next target. Not a good deal!

#2 is an intriguing option, essentially playing a "spy" role within the enemy alliance. The problem here is that double-agents also tend to have a very short life expectancy, and I think it would be tough to keep your position a secret over the long haul. Still, this isn't a "bad" option, I just think it's not as good of an option as...

#3 coming into the open on our side. That might sound suicidal, but hear me out first. The key factor is that you've got that long-running NAP with Whosit. He can't touch you until Turn 150, right? If you don't have to worry about Whosit, then... well, where's the danger, exactly? Jowy will be tied up with us for the indefinite future. Nakor is almost certainly going to be attacked by Dantski soon, and with his weak army, he'll be fighting for his life. The only real source of danger I can see would be from Kathlete attacking by sea across the world wrap. I'm not sure how much of a threat that is; your team would probably know better than ours.

I think maybe the best option is to play a neutral "Switzerland" role for the next 10 or so turns, stating by email that your team is not joining any alliances and wants to remain out of this fracas. Meanwhile, you could build up some forces and prepare to attack Nakor; if he's off fighting Dantski in the north, you'd have excellent odds to capture a city or two - especially if you could invade from the sea. (Nakor's capital was defended by 1 warrior last we saw! A very tempting target.) And remember, Whosit can't touch you until Turn 150, which is ages and ages away!

But I don't want to put words in your mouth; I'm mostly thinking out loud here. I don't want to sound too self-serving here either. My gut feeling is that your best chance to regain some strength is to take some cities from Nakor while working with Dantski. Then you'll have good odds of being able to defeat Whosit when your NAP runs out. Those Praetorians won't be nearly so scary on T150 as they were on T75! Obviously that's a bit of a gamble, but I think it would be better than joining the other alliance as a fifth wheel and waiting for them to betray you. My two cents.

Discussion with Nakor
Nakor:

Our army in Indian territory was killed by the cowardly action of Dantski.
He declared Peace and left our units in the killing field.
I'm waiting for India to accept a peace offer.
Maybe you can help a bit with that in closing your borders with them.

As you can imagine I am quite angry with Dantski.

We:

I'm sorry to hear about the faith of your army. I'm considering how I should proceed diplomatically and if it would make sense for me to close borders from Spullla and Dantski.

However one thing is bothering me. On few occasions you've mentioned that you're afraid of Whosit. Nevertheless you're now fighting a common war with him and you did send most of your army far away from Whosit's borders. This seems a lot more like you're doing a close co-operation with him. I'd like to hear your plans concerning the relationship with Whosit.

Nakor:

You ask a very valid question.
'The participation of Whosit in the attack on India was vital to our decision to join the war as well.
If Whosit hadn't joined the war, neither would we, since we would still have to be afraid of his armies.
And of course we are trying to remain on friendly terms with the guy who has the strongest units in the game.
As long as that is the case, it won't be in our interest to fight him, but who knows if he can keep up with our research and what the future will bring.

I hope I have explained our reasons a bit.

Hope to hear from you soon regarding India.

We:

We've considered your request and we've decided to stay neutral in this matter. India haven't done any harm to us and they are clearly very powerful nation. It would be quite reckless to annoy them at this point. Furthermore our cities really aren't contibuting much to them. We've 3 island cities where they can get at max +1 commerce/city compared to inland cities, but I suspect that they are not even getting even that, because they haven't defogged our island area.

[plako]

Discussion with Dantski:

Luke: hey plako you around?
me: Hi
Luke: would like to discuss some stuff with you
ill start with
8 praets are sailing back to roman lands
assume most of them veterans from fighting you
me: thx for info. sry Luke is?
Luke: dantski
me: ah ok
Have you been discussing with Spullla team?
Luke: not a lot
they told me that info though
me: We've NAP until turn 150 with Rome. Hoefully they keep their word. We're very weak curently
Luke: ok thats good
really not in my best interests to see you squashed
me: Yes. We currently declare Switzerland type neutrality. Any plans against DMOC/Nakor? We have NAP also with them until turn 135
Luke: interesting
my NAP ends at same time
currently im runnning the neutral approach
but i dont think my ex allies see it that way
me: I doubt you can be neutral anymore.
Luke: true
me: I suspect they are quite pissed. Especialy DMOC/Nakor seemed to have losed quite a bit of power (we can see their demoraphcs)
Luke: 6 units
2 axes 2 spear 1 char
so 5
they get 2 back soon
me: how?
Luke: they loaned me 2
since i entered war earlier
me: ah ok
Luke: do you currently have access to metal?
or wil lyou soon?
me: We'e copper so no problems currently
Horses could be useful at some oint, if you've extra. Whosit ook our horses
Luke: got one source myself
but im sure a deal could be arranged
gpt that kinda thing
me: And my keyboard is terrible or I'm terrible typer. sry for typos
Luke: no prob
happens to us all
me: We'll Chariots are our best horse units currently and they are not worth building I think s we don' need them now
Luke: do you have HBR now or soon?
im guessing so since you weren't heading to currency
me: Nope. We did go to Monarchy after we got NAP
Economy 1st
We can get Hwacha's online in ~15 turns, but I'm still toying with the iea of going Currency before Construction
Luke: ok
if you dont mind me asking
what concessions did you make for peace?
me: Gave a city
Horse city
We would have been crushed without this
Or at minimum our economy would have crushed on excessive whipping
There is no proper counter for agressive Praets
Luke: yeah best you can do
me: btw. what is your tech path
Luke: is head to construction
me: You've Maths?
Luke: well im probably going currency CoL
yeah maths completes this turn
rescuing economy after war
think neighbours are a bit too busy
too worry about me
HRE are antsy about indian reprisals
anyway
if you ever need metal/horses gimme a shout
will always loan you it for a while
me: thx.
Is India really economically that far aheadf rest of us?
Luke: their land is really nice
me: Do they have Construction?
Luke: cottage heaven
yes
they got it a few turns ago
me: But isn't it for most of us
Luke: well they have double rivers etc
me: We would have had a good cottae land, if we would hveen able to keep it
Luke: i have about 10 river tiles total
not great when you're not fin vs fin civs
me: Whosit is really strong also as well as Kathlete team
Luke: yeah
HRE economy is trong
i think kathlete are gonna let jowy lose some cities
me: Does India have cats alrady?
Luke: id expect them to have at least 2-3
not seen them though
me: ok. Then Jowy is in trouble
Luke: think kathlete got construction this turn
or thereabouts
me: ok so they're also doing pretty well
Luke: not sure if they got monarchy
me: I doubt it. At least they haven't converted to it
Luke: they were looking at currency next too
me: Do you know any wonders that are chased?
Luke: not heard anything
me: Whosit did go towards Aesthetics
so I guees he has plans for Great Library
Luke: if he does
me: His economy stagnated for qute sometime, but nowhe is really getting it running
Luke: i think anti india alliance will break
me: how is that?
Luke: he has a weakened neighbour in you
and free ex zulu land
hes in the best position clearly
me: He seems to be quite close with Kthlete
Luke: all i know is
kathlete seemed to start anti india alliance
and whosit and HRE were invited first
me: Silly. The nations furthest away
Luke: meeting inca next turn
no idea how they're doing
me: ok good. Do you know anything about their role in this
Luke: they were never mentioned by others
guess they are isolated
me: If they seem friendly please send warm welcome from us
Luke: can do
me: also and if it doesn't seem appopriat maybe ask about their relanship wit Whositunder our names, if you want
Luke: im sure i can dig around
Sent at 00:13 on Wednesday
me: or it might be better idea not tomention us actually. It wouldn't look good, if we're too close and he reports to Rebels
After all there hasn't been almost 0 contact betw us so far
Luke: ok ill not mention korea

[plako]

Current status:

[Jabah]

With all the new diplo, are you going to settle this city on the main land (where you are chopping) or are you still considering it as a too dangerous place ?