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NobleHelium

(March 8th, 2016, 13:10)pindicator Wrote: we get a long thin strip of workable land that encourages us to settle away from our copper

Hmm, where have I heard that one before? Oh yes.

(September 15th, 2014, 23:47)pindicator Wrote:

1A was the original spot for our settler to go, but the holy city just screws us over so badly. In 9 turns Commodore will take that pig; in order for us to get culture dominance we would need a city to have the pig be first ring and for us to pop our 2nd ring before he pops his 3rd ring. We haven't even started our settler yet. 1B is an attempt to leave spot #2 available for settling with our third settler (more on #2 soon), but it's just a worse overlal city and a horrible 2nd city. Another idea was 1N of the fur and try to chop Stonehenge, but that has no food until it pops a border. So for these reasons, we decided not to settle here. And this means Commodore pretty much owns the entire land between our capital and him, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

Relevant chat snipit:

NobleHelium
so yeah
pin
to be honest with you
i think you're fucked either way
Pindicator
hey
NobleHelium
because taking that city is going to be a bitch or maybe impossible
and it's going to pop third ring in 9 turns
and the rest of the land that i see
is a lot worse than what's in that direction
Pindicator
yeah
NobleHelium
and
Gaspar
man cathy would be so good here
NobleHelium
if you don't contest it
you're basically saying
that you're going to let your capital be first ring
to commodore
so yeah
you're basically fucked
i mean
Gaspar
I think
NobleHelium
maybe you can plant NW of the fur and get the pig back eventually
Gaspar
If you try and attack Commodore
NobleHelium
well
Gaspar
you're just going to end up first eliminated
NobleHelium
even if you get the pig back
you wouldn't get the tile 1N of the pig probably
which means you'd never have your first ring
Gaspar
I mean now, obviously
NobleHelium
unless that city falls
this is where gaspar gets sad
that he types at like half my speed
because he can't effectively argue when i am talking so much faster
Gaspar
I type plenty fast
I just have less convcition about everything
Pindicator
i'm considering w of the fur and city #3 going NE in the corn/corn/copper spot
Gaspar
so i stop, erase, restart 20 times
I think you should just Krill it up
and try and settle on everyone else
NobleHelium
well w of the fur doesn't look good to me
well
Pindicator
it shares the deer?
NobleHelium
yes but it's right behind 3 hills
that is terribad
Pindicator
yeah, it's not good
NobleHelium
can you build henge
somewhere else
then
Pindicator
the problem with settling up on everyone else is there's a fucking isthmus between me and everyone else
NobleHelium
plant NE of fur
Gaspar
yeah
fuck this map already
NobleHelium
this is why i am super picky
about mapmakers

But pindicator! You've cut away before the best part!

pindicator

Turn 067

Wow are we just flying through turns!

2 main points from this turn:

[Image: pb31-turn067-claiming.jpg?raw=1]

I forgot to take a screenshot until after I moved my warrior, but it looks like TBS is going to put his city here to hit in a frontline. He's picking a spot that will neatly mix borders with where I put Cruz, which combined with his recent unit movements makes me think he might actually have peaceful intentions. (In other words, he's seen our land is shit, and has plenty of good stuff to settle up north, so there's no need for him to pick a fight.)

But really, I don't like his city placement. And not in the "it's staking land that I want" reason. In fact, it's the opposite. I don't want that land. Those hills? They're the shit land I was talking about. It feels like TBS is claiming tiles just to claim tiles, which in the normal lush multiplayer map is a fine idea. But here he's leaving the gold just to grab a few hills off of me? I hope there's some more info I don't have that caused him to take this site, like maybe he already has a city by the gold (nothing in the fog that shows that though). And where was I going to put a city up there anyway? All he had to do was put the city on the plains hill and he'd have as safe a border, probably even safer because we'd let more culture come between us. The one spot I'm considering putting a city over there is along the coast, and this really does nothing to stop me from doing that.

Now we're looking at a prime target for when we get our Guerrilla 2 Minutemen online. Oh yes, I have found the silver lining to this god-awful land. We have a fantastic border for Minutemen quick strike attacks! We just have to, you know, survive until then.

I need to figure out my micro for my cities. TBS threw a wrench in my past plans and it looks like we might be stabilizing so I need to figure out my worker & city micro for the next 10 turns or so. I spent a good 15 minutes trying to figure out if it was worth whipping at Clinton or not, and then I realized that the city has a granary, and it will grow back to size 3 on the interim regardless because it's at 25/26 food right now. And I desperately need worker-turns. So we whipped it.

Oh yeah, 2nd significant thing:

[Image: pb31-turn067-marble.jpg?raw=1]

Send next settler west?

pindicator · March 9th, 2016, 21:14

Oh god noble, I had blocked that game out of my mind. (I had blocked 19 out of my mind too until someone reminded me of it at the early stages of this game.) I really have had the worst luck with maps in the last 4 or 5 games I've played.

pindicator · March 9th, 2016, 21:56

I actually re-read the pbem62 thread, and there's a good lesson to be taken from that game: even when things look the worst keep looking for solutions because you just might find something. I was ready to flip the table when Commodore put his 2nd City + Holy City on my border, but then I was able to counter with a delayed 2nd city + holy city of my own. (I was later stupid and didn't build a spearman like I had told myself to do, but that's another lesson.) Point is, we need to keep brainstorming, no matter how outside the box. Because that's how you find the really cool plans. (Another plan that started as a crazy brainstorming idea was the pb8 Zulu migration.)

So ... anybody have any crazy ideas?

scooter

Wow, that's a nice stretch of good news for a change. I agree that TBS looks to be claiming land, not gearing up for aggression. In the meantime, that marble is possibly a gamechanger. So here's two possible things you can do with it that sound promising to me.

1) Rush up the top of the tree and get yourself Great Library + National Epic, both of which double with marble. Generate yourself several scientists and bulb your way down the Liberalism line. Get the Music artist while you're at it which you could use to either middle-finger TBS or more likely use for a golden age to make generating scientists easier. Bulb your way to a tech edge and convert it into something. Libbing astro could be pretty powerful here. Libbing Eco could net you the merchant and access to your cheap Custom Houses which might be an actually-useful building here for once between the map and your discount on them.

2) Chase MoM. You already want calendar given the resource situation, so prioritize it early. Use an extended golden age to get yourself some great people to aid in a Nationalism beeline - merchant missions or bulbing. May be pretty hard to pull off both.

At least you've got some options now. We know this map sure isn't balanced, so you know it's not like everyone will have marble... Thoughts?

edit: just remembered marble doesn't double anymore, just +50%. Comments still stand otherwise, though.

Gaspar · March 9th, 2016, 23:41

Well the real lesson here is when some dude comes into the game setup and says "I WANT A RANDOM MAP RARARARARAR!" You say "Fuck you, I want a balanced one" or "Fuck you, I'm out" not "Ok sure I just want a game." But we all are doomed to never learn that one, because, y'know, we want a game.

But yeah, get crazy, don't flip the table, all that jazz. (I can't really comment because I'm spoiled - though I can say if I was in your shoes with your information I'd probably flip the table but that's because I'm a irrational prick.)

Good luck!

scooter · March 9th, 2016, 23:55

(March 9th, 2016, 23:41)Gaspar Wrote: Well the real lesson here is when some dude comes into the game setup and says "I WANT A RANDOM MAP RARARARARAR!" You say "Fuck you, I want a balanced one" or "Fuck you, I'm out" not "Ok sure I just want a game." But we all are doomed to never learn that one, because, y'know, we want a game.

Or at least "yeah I'm good with random and some unfairness, just please don't pick a script that's notoriously impossible to play without heavy editing like, oh I don't know, Global Highlands." When I hear "lightly edited mostly random map" I assume that means you're gonna roll a dozen Fractals or whatever standard script you prefer and pick the best one (PB8/PB13), not pick a novelty script.

Anyway, I'll drop this. I don't want to re-dampen the mood after Pindicator rescued himself from the brink of ragequitting already. Lessons learned/re-learned, and I think there's definitely plenty of fun to be had in this game regardless. Plus I really like Ceiliazul, so I feel bad saying too many mean things about this monstrosity he chose. lol

pindicator · March 10th, 2016, 02:34

(March 9th, 2016, 23:39)scooter Wrote: 1) Rush up the top of the tree and get yourself Great Library + National Epic, both of which double with marble. Generate yourself several scientists and bulb your way down the Liberalism line. Get the Music artist while you're at it which you could use to either middle-finger TBS or more likely use for a golden age to make generating scientists easier. Bulb your way to a tech edge and convert it into something. Libbing astro could be pretty powerful here. Libbing Eco could net you the merchant and access to your cheap Custom Houses which might be an actually-useful building here for once between the map and your discount on them.

I rather like the idea of bulbing Astronomy, and Great Library does seem like a natural extension of that plan. With how people have beelined wonders this game I'm pretty sure that means we need to do it as a Masonry -> Polytheism -> Aesthetics -> Literature beeline and then catch up with Math and Currency after the fact.

The key thing here is that Astronomy is one of the technologies that had it's prerequisites changed in RtR: it requires Code of Laws in addition to Optics and Calendar. (Thankfully this is not the version that requires Paper, as that pretty makes an early Astro bulb impossible.) Astronomy is going to take 2 GPs to bulb, and in order to bulb it we just need to make sure we grab Alphabet in addition to the normal technologies needed to research it. (Probably a good idea to add Feudalism to that list, since we'll want all of Longbow, Vassalage, and Serfdom.) We also CANNOT research Meditation, Civil Service, or Theology as they open up other techs that bulb ahead of Astronomy. Especially Theology and Civil Service as those open up the Paper line and will make it so we'll never realistically be able to bulb Astronomy.

Considering we have a Great Prophet due to be born in a little over 30 turns, that probably means our Great Prophet becomes settled (never a bad idea in a slow pace game) or stashed away to trigger a golden age.

There's another thing we can do down this line: how about going for Statue of Zeus? Build it in a costal town like Clinton and then we can pump out 2-promo naval units after teching Feudalism. And if we're not going to go for a shrine with the prophet then mixing GPs isn't so bad a thing here.

Alternatively we can beeline the Great Library and then use the first Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy, while saving the Great Prophet from Clinton to build the shrine. This also leads us towards Nationalism, which is another one of those greatly improved civics, especially if we manage to get the kind of city spam we were initially hoping for.

The other thing to consider, is that going down this line pretty much puts a nail in the coffin in the idea of getting our own religion, as well as the idea of us going for religious wonders.

(March 9th, 2016, 23:39)scooter Wrote: 2) Chase MoM. You already want calendar given the resource situation, so prioritize it early. Use an extended golden age to get yourself some great people to aid in a Nationalism beeline - merchant missions or bulbing. May be pretty hard to pull off both.

I don't know why I'm not more in love this plan. It's the obvious one: lots of Calendar resources, we have marble. I should probably go for this plan. It means that I will need to get Calendar ahead of Currency, and probably Iron Working directly Calendar. Golden Ages end up being a huge commerce bonus for water maps, as well.

We still have some time to think about it - Writing is still 5 or so turns away. But it's sounding more and more like the next city needs to go towards claiming that Marble - either directly beside it or by claiming the double-seafood spot northeast of it.

pindicator

Turn 068

I found another silver lining to this cloud. At least we didn't start next to this guy:

Click to resize (Javascript)

And of course his starting scout has survived until now. Commodore getting all the RNG luck never changes, does it?

You can see TBS did plant that city where his settler was last turn. I still think it's a bad decision. Noble was telling me he'd put the city 2N, and I can see the merit in that: get all the flood plains in first ring so you can grow faster. I still think N-NE of it was the way to go.

Anyway, decided not to stick around and be a past; there's a big world out there that needs exploring!

The big decision to make this turn is where to send our next settler. There's one finishing up in 2 turns at the capital, and we have a couple candidates. I think I'm going to stick to my guns and follow the food, but I'm still going to go through the candidates.

First candidate is actually in that screenshot above: when do we want to grab the ivory? Our happiness cap is currently at 5, and only Cliniton is sitting up against it (and only because I keep whipping the city). I'm planning on growing the capital to size 6 after this settler (though I may rethink that to pump out another settler quick), but I don't think it needs to go higher than there for a while.

The other question is how do we want to grab that Ivory? Witih jungle on top of it, my two options are settling on top of it, and waiting for Iron Working. Settlign on top of it is the easiest solution, but it'll be an awful city forever. Settling SW of the ivory will allow us to work 2 grass farms (eventually) and even farm the dyes over in tihe short term. Another possibility is that the tile east of Commodore's scout looks to be flatland. If it's a food tile I could put a city where my archer is standing now -- which would actually be an ok border city to keep some influence in the northeast.

All together: low priority, unless the archer turns up something on the coast in the next 2 turns.

Then there's the marble:

Click to resize (Javascript)

Of course there's no food for the marble. Why would I get food this game? So we can again, settle on top of the resource, but this will orphan the fish. I don't think I want to do that here. In fact, I really am leaning towards sending the next settler out here to grab the fish/clam spot next. I can plant this city in 5 turns and have a worker along to mine the plains hill and chop the forest to help the growth curve out. Honestly, this probably should be my next spot, but the marble needs to be in consideration for shortly after. Since the double-seafood plant eliminates A as a possiibility, the next options are B or C. B means we can hook the up the marble right away since it will be first ring. However, it settles on top of one of the few forests in the area, and it also leaves the remaining tiles around as jungle. Meaning this city will probably just stay at size 1 working the marble tile until Iron Working finishes. If we plant on C then we need to wait for a border pop to hook up the marble, but it then leaves the forest for chopping into a granary and turning into a farm later. However, down the road we lose out on the commerce from a dye tile.

I think I favor B, and just leaving the city at size 1 until we can chop all the jungle. And as such the city will be delayed until right up until we actually need the marble.

Finally, there's the islands:

Click to resize (Javascript)

If we send the next settler here, it's a bit of a gamble. The only place to safely put him will be the island to the southeast of Sanders, and we'd be gambling that the island has seafood. The galley would have to wait a turn for the settler to arrive as well, so the timing isn't great. I think this means I'd rather make a settler to arrive down here in about 10 turns, to give the galley some time to explore first, and then we'd have info on where a good spot might be.

Also, I think I'm going to build Moai in Sanders. Granary -> Lighthouse -> Moai.

scooter · March 10th, 2016, 13:28

Even crazier is that his scout has 0 promotions, which means that given its .8h, his scout has only been attacked once this entire game. Anyway, maybe this at least means Commodore is next to TBS, and maybe would be amenable to squeezing him with us later in the age of Minutemen or whatever. Something worth storing away in the back of your mind.

As for city plans, yeah I wouldn't even consider ivory plant right now. Planting next to it is pointless pre-IW, and planting on it would hurt the growth curve so badly that I can't imagine it's worth it. I'd wait on that one. Calendar, save us.

As for the area around Marble... I also agree with ruling out A. Food is so rare that orphaning a fish would be so bad. So it's basically between B and C. I think I slightly prefer C just because it's faster starting like you said, but it may depend on what and when you want to use that marble. That said, you can put off the decision until pretty late like you said, so no need to decide yet.

I would definitely prioritize the fish/clams spot first, so we're in agreement yet again. No need to throw a dart at the islands yet. Also, if you want to prioritize National Epic, this may be literally the only spot we've uncovered where it could be pretty good. Once you've got lighthouse + civil service, you could get this thing up to a 9F surplus (fish, clams, two grass farms). It's definitely the city that will be productive the quickest. The lack of forests is a downside though to the idea of shoving TGL + NE into here.

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