NobleHelium posts Hearthstone screenshots & lurkers get annoyed. Earlier: sound, fury

[Old Harry]

Dedlurker checking in for dumb optimism injection. I like your initial thoughts Gaspar - sounds like you've got this in the bag already!

Also, so with Sullla posting in scooter's thread and mackoti in pindicator's, how long until they're both running the respective civs?

Sullla lives! I think he just really likes playing against you two...


I don't think I've got my head around what's needed to get a fast start at this point in the game. I've got a few questions and if you already thought of the answers that'd be great:
1. Cottages are slow so how do you tech without them? FIN coast? Trade? Specialists?
2. Do you need to tech?
3. How many turns will it be before someone else gets to a tech level which obsoletes the Rifles, Cav and Grens we can build from the start?
4. Can you kill them before that?
5. At the start you have nine population and two workers to build them improvements - is whipping out more workers straight away (EXP) the best move?
6. Is IMP broken? 200 hammer settlers mean you get three cities for your opponent's two and doubled GG points sound like commandos to me.
7. If you spread cities out a little more than normal how many can you fit in the 160 tiles each team is likely to have?

I'll think about the opponents you might not have read up on and give some thoughts a bit later.

[NobleHelium]

Cottages suck, but you're right that they are the main source of commerce. We pretty much assumed off the bat that we wouldn't build any cottages and would just workshop and windmill everything. Windmills will give us some commerce but now that you mention it I guess there's going to be lots of Research building.

I'm pretty sure we need to tech, yes. We'll want to tech Steam Power immediately for worker speed and then probably Assembly Line before going for Railroad.

My wild ass guess is that Steam Power will take like 30 turns, then Assembly Line 20 turns, and subsequent techs could be 10 turns.

Workers are 48h assuming the sandbox is correct, WHICH BRICK SHOULD ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT, so no, I don't think we whip them.

IMP is good for sure, I don't think it's broken.

I generally estimate number of cities as land tiles / 12, but I don't know if Brick meant 160 total tiles or 160 land tiles. But yes, you're right that in a later start you'll want to spread out a bit more as well since you can improve and grow faster.

[BRickAstley]

If it's in the sandbox it's probably that way in the game. I'll check when I'm at a computer.

[Old Harry]

You might want to have a play with this sandbox.

[Gaspar]

You da man, Harry.

[Gaspar]

Thought I might take a stab at these...

1. Cottages are slow so how do you tech without them? FIN coast? Trade? Specialists?

Building research seems like the answer, particularly with only one FIN civ. Specialists will obviously generate the majority of everyone's early economy but with tech costs what they are, they're really not going to do enough. Teching is going to be very hard and there is a real argument for going all in on the war solution.

2. Do you need to tech?

See above. I think somebody is going to go Boudica of Russia or similar and go apeshit and eliminate a neighbor if we're remotely close to one another. I don't necessarily think its an incorrect strategy here, either.

3. How many turns will it be before someone else gets to a tech level which obsoletes the Rifles, Cav and Grens we can build from the start?

Well, high numbers of those can still smoke Infantry, especially if supported by cannon and the Infantry guy doesn't have them. Machine Guns are the guys who end Cavs. Hitting the bottom of the tree is definitely the less sexy option but its unquestionably the safer one. I think you're looking at a 60 turn window where you can realistically hurt your opponents in a way they can't appropriately respond if you went all in on offense. The question is how long does it take you to generate enough of a Civ to burn it all down in a quest for blood? I think probably 30-40t before you could put together sufficient force to be more than a game ruiner. Is that 20t window enough? It might be, I don't know.

4. Can you kill them before that?

See above again. I think you can maybe get a kill there. Is that enough to make up for the economic disadvantage? I'm dubious. Someone will definitely try it though.

5. At the start you have nine population and two workers to build them improvements - is whipping out more workers straight away (EXP) the best move?

Maybe. This answer takes simming. You're almost certainly whipping 3 settlers as soon you have a workforce to support them so it probably makes sense to whip out 3 workers right away. You could also certainly chop the workforce but it might be best to do both.

6. Is IMP broken? 200 hammer settlers mean you get three cities for your opponent's two and doubled GG points sound like commandos to me.

As Noble said, its very good. CHM is also very good in a military game where you're whipping early. ORG is very good with factories on the horizon. FIN and IND are pretty good when you're the only one with them. SPI is pretty good when you have access to lots of civics early and reasons to want to bounce around - particularly between Slavery, Serfdom and Caste System, not to mention OR, Theo and Pacifism. AGG is very good when there are a lot of very strong one-movers on the horizon and the economic traits are less important.... etc.

7. If you spread cities out a little more than normal how many can you fit in the 160 tiles each team is likely to have?

I'm guessing we naturally get to somewhere between 8-12. An Ancient Era game on a similar map would look more like 14+ but you're definitely going to use less overlap for all the obvious reasons.

I'll think about the opponents you might not have read up on and give some thoughts a bit later.

Please do.

[NobleHelium]

Oh look, mackoti is backdooring into yet another game. I don't know what to say. Fuck off.

[Old Harry]

Team List:

1) scooter (& Sullla)
You know more about these guys than I do.

2) ReallyEvilMuffin
A ladder player with very good tactical play and adequate economic play. Normally beelines a military tech and destroys a neighbor giving other players a chance to drag him down which they botch or bottle. Given the amount of military tech he starts with I assume he'll attack whichever neighbor looks most vulnerable. See pbem 66 where he romped home thanks to some stupidity from Bob (who gives byzantium iron in the era of knights?) And pb27 where he dismembered Commodore handily using the power of toroid.

3) Pindicator (& mackoti)
You know these guys too.

4) Cheater Hater & Donovan Zoi (& greenline)
Do you remember Donovan from the apolyton demogame? He's played a couple of games without huge success recently - pb25 he came in second or third without needing to do too much, pb27 his neighbor murder-suicided him. Cheater Hater had a terrible first pbem, but is doing much better in pb27. Tends to take setbacks personally so teaming might be really good for him. I don't think either has executed a good war yet, so this game could be challenging for them.

5) Dreylin (& Elum & OT4E)
Dreylin has been around a while and is solid if unspectacular. Elum won a greens pitboss (23) at a canter although theoretically with Mackoti mentoring. OT4E is, I believe, a dueling champ and very sound tactically. I'd have them down as dark horses if the team works well...

6) Boldly Going Nowhere (& spacetyrantxenu)
Didn't they learn from pb11?

7) Gaspar & NobleHelium (&Old Harry)
The most handsomest team around.

[Gaspar]

How did this turn into a field where I liked everyone to one with my personal nemeses running around? And I teamed up with a Sp*rs fan I actually like?

Up is down, down is up, etc etc.

[Old Harry]

Hey, aren't we all Leicester fans now anyway?