Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Commodore]

I feel like working together and making Europe a better place to live for all of us would in the long term benefit all European countries. Is that too naive?

Nah, some player always gets fixated on a city spot and goes eternal war on the guy who got there first...

[pindicator]

Pretty sure that 'need' doesn't describe our foreign policy. When's the last time you heard someone say the US is too focused on realpolitik, not idealistic enough?

Just about every Bernie Sanders supporter out there

a well thought out post that I'm condenscing in the interest of saving virtual space.

What I'm curious about is your impression of the situation now that the Leave vote has succeeded. Everything I'm hearing in the States is that the Leave side has no actual plan and that they were just riding a nationalist wave to try and oust the current government and put themselves in power. I don't think GB leaving the EU is inherently awful; but leaving without a clear plan of how to do it seems like asking Europe to take advantage of you / make an example out of you to prevent other countries from trying the same.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I feel like working together and making Europe a better place to live for all of us would in the long term benefit all European countries. Is that too naive?

I feel that this vote will allow Europe to go the way it needs to without a partner that kinda doesn't want to be there, kicking, screaming and preventing the change needed. The EU needs to drastically change to survive, and I don't think it is capable of this currently.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Pretty sure that 'need' doesn't describe our foreign policy. When's the last time you heard someone say the US is too focused on realpolitik, not idealistic enough?

Just about every Bernie Sanders supporter out there

a well thought out post that I'm condenscing in the interest of saving virtual space.

What I'm curious about is your impression of the situation now that the Leave vote has succeeded. Everything I'm hearing in the States is that the Leave side has no actual plan and that they were just riding a nationalist wave to try and oust the current government and put themselves in power. I don't think GB leaving the EU is inherently awful; but leaving without a clear plan of how to do it seems like asking Europe to take advantage of you / make an example out of you to prevent other countries from trying the same.

This last paragraph is the frustrating one. Of course there is no formal plan there never could be one. Cameron attempted to renegotiate with the EU and present the returned settlement as a win. He then originally stated he would decide on which side to campaign.

However he returned with bugger all, not backed up with treaty change thus not even legally binding. These reforms weren't mentioned as a positive at all during the campaigns, and indeed probably did more harm showing that 'the EU doesn't care and thinks we will stay anyway'. It also cast huge doubt on a Cameron's judgement when the hyperbole came out about WW3 and everything.

The EU wouldn't let anyone negotiate what a brexit world might be, and why would they? The fear of the unknown was remains strongest ploy. They weren't gonna give that up. The EU also just didn't want to take the time to discuss hypotheticals that seemed very unlikely to happen. They still see the best way of limiting contagion as ignoring and getting over quickly.

I just don't see how there could be a plan until negotiations are done in earnest, because none of those that needed to do it had any vested interests in doing it.

[Rowain]

I wonder if the whole won't turn out to be much ado about nothing.

So far all that happened was a votum which has no legal binding. Cameron himself will not sent the "We are leaving"-message.
So the next 3 month nothing happens besides tory and labour both going into self-destruct mode.

[Mr. Cairo]

I feel that this vote will allow Europe to go the way it needs to without a partner that kinda doesn't want to be there, kicking, screaming and preventing the change needed. The EU needs to drastically change to survive, and I don't think it is capable of this currently.

As a vehement remain supporter and believer in a fully federalized Europe (that includes the UK), this is basically the only reason for supporting Brexit that I respect, because it represents a difference in ideology, not a disagreement over policy, something which so often in politics ends up being completely divorced from the facts or data.

But I want to ask you how you feel about the outpouring of racist acts and violence that the referendum result precipitated?

I do not think that everyone, or even many, of the leave voters are racist or condone these acts. But the racist and nationalist minority in the UK have been emboldened by this result, they feel their beliefs have been legitimized, and so they are acting much more openly than before. Do you think it was worth siding with such people to achieve victory in this referendum?

FWIW this is not a criticism or attack, I really am curious how reasonable leave supporters feel about this issue.

[Twinkletoes89]

I voted leave. Most important vote in a generation. Went campaigning for it and everything, spent hours and hours pounding the streets to make sure that we left the EU. Not all of us are the great unwashed and old the media would have you believe! I think I am relatively young and well off :P

The well off bit is no surprise.

Voting leave was the greatest act of political self-harm that the UK has ever committed.

[Twinkletoes89]

Btw pretty much every key reason given for Brexit has been proven to be inaccurate or just an outright lie...

Focusing on the racism bit just allows them to play the misunderstood victim card and avoid the fact that they've won a referendum based on falsehoods and a flagrant disregard for expertise.

It's a global joke, and usually only our football team makes us look like that.

[gsorel]

The massive panning of democracy and universal suffrage I keep reading about as a reaction to these populist revolts warms the dark cockles of my reactionary heart.

[Mr. Cairo]

Focusing on the racism bit just allows them to play the misunderstood victim card and avoid the fact that they've won a referendum based on falsehoods and a flagrant disregard for expertise.

This is very true, but that doesn't mean that the racism bit should be ignored or dismissed. I, as a liberal, left-wing, supporter of a federal Europe, would be happy to have a rational, reasonable, discussion about immigration and the effects of the EU's freedom of movement with a leave supporter; I just hope that then we would be able to have a rational, reasonable discussion about racism afterwards.

Pretending that racism doesn't exist is just as bad as crying racism every time someone wants to talk about immigration.