[LURKERS] Setting Up Tents for a Ren Faire

[The Black Sword]

actually, maybe it's smarter to squeeze out an engineer (maybe via a 90% diceroll or something) before the random GP from the NE, as that would only delay the NE's GP by 4 turns. That wouldn't even be so bad, as it'd be nice to have the NE even bigger for the GA so you can run even more scientists. Generate the 4th GP, a scientist, within 3-4 turns, bulb Edu, start Unis; switch back to slavery on the last turn of the GA, whip universities the next turn, GE Oxford the turn after that. Oxford + Academy Bureaucap on T252! You'd also have Nat + Const + Edu, a big stack of gold, and a spare GP about to pop from your NE, possibly a scientist for an Astro or PP bulb. As far as research goes, both done and future potential, that seems really hard to top.

Yeah, if you want to guarantee a GE, it probably needs to be the second GP. The NE could be well setup up to churn out a mixed roll for a golden age 3-4t after that.

Btw, some other random thoughts I had:

-I'm no longer convinced that Constitution is the best first tech target. We're still maybe 20t away from Constitution in that sim and I think we could definitely be knocking into other people's borders and competing for islands by then. Having an advantage in military or naval could be very favourable in border skirmishes. Techs still take so long to complete without bulbing that the advantage could hold for a while. This is really good for Mack too, because he has a military advantage without needing to tech anything.

-What do you build in your cities as you grow? I don't think you can afford to build too much infra. Units are really sparse across your territory and I didn't really want to whip anything that wasn't a food unit. My thinking was to spoil the capital(market, Library) and other than that focus on unit builds unless really necessary(Lib for a GS or the NE).

[Krill]

I think you can still build HE in Feb starts? So I'd be considering what I need to get a GG for M3 and earlyish HE, and focussing on units for skirmishing may be a viable option economically, especially with an early Astro to lock up those resource islands.

[GermanJoey]

-I'm no longer convinced that Constitution is the best first tech target. We're still maybe 20t away from Constitution in that sim and I think we could definitely be knocking into other people's borders and competing for islands by then. Having an advantage in military or naval could be very favourable in border skirmishes. Techs still take so long to complete without bulbing that the advantage could hold for a while. This is really good for Mack too, because he has a military advantage without needing to tech anything.

-What do you build in your cities as you grow? I don't think you can afford to build too much infra. Units are really sparse across your territory and I didn't really want to whip anything that wasn't a food unit. My thinking was to spoil the capital(market, Library) and other than that focus on unit builds unless really necessary(Lib for a GS or the NE).

- T53 Rep isn't so bad though. Rep is so very useful for this situation... both the happiness boost and the free Merc beakers. For example, if you want to run, say, 7 specs in your NE, then that needs size 11, but you're only getting to size 9 without a Market, the Gold Island, or Rep. Likewise, the capital wants to be size A Billion. Then there's the Merc beakers... probably looking at around ~100bpt at that point by itself.
I think your earlier point that Edu won't pay off for awhile still holds, as even Phi plako won't have time to get 6 libs and 6 uni so early.PP wouldn't have any impact by itself before T60. Gunpowder might be necessary if one of your neighbors feels like banging pots and pans, but I feel like that's more of a side-line rather than something you want to commit to. Finally, Astro is the biggest single game-changer tech for sure, but... I think there's plenty of time to get there, as it'll take awhile before you have cities on contested water that are capable of building a Galleon... I'd have to look more closely at how much forestage is down there to see if chopping ships would be possible.

At any rate, there's plenty of time before the slider needs to be run.

- Well, I think the Aztecs want an SA in each city for sure, whether you end up insta-whipping it or slow-building it. A 36h courthouse by itself, especially when you have a fast Academy, is just absurdly powerful. Then there's also the EP accumulation, which lets them get demos on everybody very fast (and lets them find out about any potential rush) and eventually research visibility on most. Asoka probably wants them too. Other people, probably not early. That leaves barracks as the one building you'd want in most places, although this build isn't necessary early, only once you want to start building "real" units that aren't scouts are garrisons. If Oxford is desired, you'd eventually want 6 libraries, but I think its not necessary to grow on them... you'd want to whip the other 4 (3?) the turn before Edu is done. As far as the NE goes, most civs will want to stay in caste later on so there's no need to build anything besides the library/NE/NP. However, the Aztecs need to think hard about when they want to lay off the whip as it can pay off spectacularly for them; if it's not for awhile, their NE will need more specialist-slot-buildings.

But yeah, units are the #1 priority. I think that, before Iron is hooked, you want to pump out as many warriors as you can possibly make, both for internal garrisons and advanced scouts. Warriors definitely before SAs. Also, you'd want at least ~6 extra longbows to plant on jungle/ice hills at the various neighbor access points, to serve as scouts. The Spi civs probably want to build a lot of missionaries. And then of course, some actual units that can actually do things... probably want to focus on mostly Knights for a long time for their mobility, mixing in a some cats and muskets (when available).

[GermanJoey]

I think you can still build HE in Feb starts? So I'd be considering what I need to get a GG for M3 and earlyish HE, and focussing on units for skirmishing may be a viable option economically, especially with an early Astro to lock up those resource islands.

Yeah, HE is available here. And hmmm, that might be a pretty good idea for plako. He's Imp, and I think the GG counter is reduced by 10% here, so he needs just 14XP? He's also Phi and can bulb astro easily, oh and then also bulb Chem easily too. Spam privateers and eat up a few enemy Galleons from outta the fog. Might not get you 100% of the way there, but probably within range of needing to just pick off a couple units to get that GG.

[The Black Sword]

100bpt from Rep sounds pretty optimistic to me, that's about 25 specialists? I could see an IMP civ making it to 20 I guess in that timeframe. You could go for Cuirs instead and that seems really hard for the Constitution civ to counter to me. Or Astro, or be 4k beakers closer to Rifling.

Just holding off on the slider is a really good point though. If you feel safe you can commit to Rep, or if you see an opportunity to attack you can switch to something else. The HE is also a cool consideration, makes me glad to see that barbs are off.

Regarding the SAs, I just don't see the point until either your sitting on a couple of whip unhappy or at least 5gpt maintenance.

[GermanJoey]

100bpt from Rep sounds pretty optimistic to me, that's about 25 specialists? I could see an IMP civ making it to 20 I guess in that timeframe. You could go for Cuirs instead and that seems really hard for the Constitution civ to counter to me. Or Astro, or be 4k beakers closer to Rifling.

Just holding off on the slider is a really good point though. If you feel safe you can commit to Rep, or if you see an opportunity to attack you can switch to something else. The HE is also a cool consideration, makes me glad to see that barbs are off.

Regarding the SAs, I just don't see the point until either your sitting on a couple of whip unhappy or at least 5gpt maintenance.

I was thinking: you'd have at least 13-14 non-capital cities by T53, 8 specs in NE (w/ library, so like 10), capital has library and academy so its 1 spec is like 2. So, not quite 100bpt w/o the libraries and universities needed for Oxford.

regarding the SAs: they don't do a lot right away, of course, but the way I look at it is that you're Imp so you know that the costs are gonna hit that level relatively soon. thus, it's something in the "long term todo list" along with barracks, libraries for Oxford, etc. the questions, which do you get first? garrison/sentries are most important, but you need them up and in place instantly, just need them to be there when you need them. other units want the barracks first and you won't need those early.

so, once you're ok with your garrison/sentry situation, IMHO the SA is the most logical build. even if it doesn't save you a lot of gpt right way, the gold it saves is gold in the bank. e.g., an SA that saves 2gpt will save up 40gpt in 20 turns, which will translate into like ~100b once its funneled through the bureaucap's library/academy setupl. and then there's the ep... the more EP you can accumulate in total relative to how much every other player accumulates in total will translate to how much you can drown them in EP.

I think with the serfdom start would end up primarily building garrisons with very few hammers invested into SA, but a slavery-start, which is what they ended up going with, would need to whip a lot more and thus end up with quite a few SAs early. how one dotmaps (i.e.. how fast the fur, whale, and ivory can be hooked up) also affects how much you want the early SAs... in some of my sims, I really did need that SA whip bonus to keep my cities from falling into the red!

[OT4E]

I think Representation itself cant be game breaking. It requires investments which pay off in a medium length period of time. Not getting Astro, Chemistry, Military tradition or Rifling earlier can cost you more.

I think it must be considered as late goal along with the whole Democracy path after both borders and marines are securied. I'd not drop Emancipation from the board because in Ren you have time to build and grow cottages in opposite to what we have seen in Indu.

[BRickAstley]

Btw, there's an ice covered flood plain to the southeast, not sure if that was intentional or not Mardoc

Told you I forgot to apply global warming

I know you know but for the others, that was totally my hand not Mardoc's. When checking it over I tried to 'winterify' the poles a little bit, and that was one exapmle of that. Hope it won't cause any problems...

[Mardoc]

Btw, there's an ice covered flood plain to the southeast, not sure if that was intentional or not Mardoc

Told you I forgot to apply global warming

I know you know but for the others, that was totally my hand not Mardoc's. When checking it over I tried to 'winterify' the poles a little bit, and that was one exapmle of that. Hope it won't cause any problems...

I think the lake clams on the bridges are an accidental result of Joey's final copy script, as well. The jungled fish is probably my own error, as is the one hill -> flatland change in the initial 7x7.

On all of those seen so far, I don't see any way it can cause a serious problem. I'm pretty sure the floodplains are mirrored, so that's just uniqueness, not imbalance. The lake clams are apparently not perfectly mirrored, but they're not close to home. Each of these is a clear sign of artificial mapmaking, but there's no way they can delude themselves this is a natural map anyway...

I still think we've achieved the main factor for balance: winning should depend 99% on the players: strategy, micro, workers, leader/civ picks, neighbors.

I'm personally surprised that no one has noticed the calendar resource non-mirroring yet.

[The Black Sword]

in some of my sims, I really did need that SA whip bonus to keep my cities from falling into the red!

Fair enough, if it results in extra tiles being worked I'm all for it. But libraries or courthouses built for an extra few gpt are too extravagant right now IMO.

I'd not drop Emancipation from the board because in Ren you have time to build and grow cottages in opposite to what we have seen in Indu.

That's a cool idea, I'd love to see someone like Mansa try abuse Emancipation.