The First Civ6 Lurker Thread

[Bacchus]

I have three cities and three Builders, all cities have special tiles which need improving, so just do that

Why do people hate on chopping so much that it's not even on their radar? Three charges is ~120 cogs RIGHT NOW, with Colonization that's two settlers!!

[Dp101]

Maybe because flatland tiles are so garbage? Like, chopping in Civ IV really had no drawback, since almost always you didn't really want a lumber mill and if you really needed the flatland production you just built a workshop. In Civ 6, once you chop a flatland tile, it basically becomes worthless. So, chopping is more balanced through nerfs to flatland tiles rather than any attribute of the mechanic itself.

[Bacchus]

Maybe because flatland tiles are so garbage? Like, chopping in Civ IV really had no drawback, since almost always you didn't really want a lumber mill and if you really needed the flatland production you just built a workshop. In Civ 6, once you chop a flatland tile, it basically becomes worthless. So, chopping is more balanced through nerfs to flatland tiles rather than any attribute of the mechanic itself.

Most of the city tiles will remain unworked until much later in the game anyway, if at all. Flatland tiles in Civ 6 are for districts and wonders. In fact, Sulla already cleared a rainforest without chopping to place a district. Yuri's third city only has rainforests anyway, which don't even give production, just food, and you get that food when you chop. You can then farm these tiles for a larger food yield. In fact, I would say that blowing a worker on clearing the marsh and two rainforests is a no-brainer in Yuri's third city -- he will immediately shoot the city to max population, ignoring housing penalty btw, the pop will start yielding science and culture, and he will mostly complete a Settler (or a fourth Jag for an absolutely uber-army after connecting Ivory).

[Rowain]

I have three cities and three Builders, all cities have special tiles which need improving, so just do that

Why do people hate on chopping so much that it's not even on their radar? Three charges is ~120 cogs RIGHT NOW, with Colonization that's two settlers!!

Part of this might be the fact that the resulting tiles are useless afterwards. In civ4 you use the resulting grassland tiles for workshops/cottages which are both good things. In cv 6 you end with a 2/0/0 tile that needs another buildercharge to get to 3/0/0. Even if you farm the tile in Civ4 it is better as you can turn the resulting pop into hammers/Units there.

In civ4 a city completely surrounded with grassland-tiles can still be a very productive member in your empire (whipping, farming/workshopping, cottages ) and doesn't need much help from other cities. In civ6 a city with only grassland-tiles gives you nothing.

[Bacchus]

Part of this might be the fact that the resulting tiles are useless afterwards. In civ4 you use the resulting grassland tiles for workshops/cottages which are both good things. In cv 6 you end with a 2/0/0 tile that needs another buildercharge to get to 3/0/0. Even if you farm the tile in Civ4 it is better as you can turn the resulting pop into hammers/Units there.

In civ4 a city completely surrounded with grassland-tiles can still be a very productive member in your empire (whipping, farming/workshopping, cottages ) and doesn't need much help from other cities. In civ6 a city with only grassland-tiles gives you nothing.

I think that's definitely a part of it. Even if a grassland-only city gives you culture and science from population, the contrast with Civ4 is very, very stark. Thing is, even for forests, the 2/1 isn't that much better, and lumbermills are a way away, and also require a builder charge. But at least for forests you can see the argument. Rainforests OTOH don't even give production except if you chop them, plus you get your 30 surplus food upfront, instead of over 50-odd turns (assuming you are chopping rainforests that would only be worked by your 4th and later citizens). I would only save rainforests in cases where I don't yet have apprenticeship/currency and I want to chop them into the appropriate district.

[RefSteel]

Burning a rainforest for a district does seem to be a (rare) mistake by Sullla here. He wanted to lock in the cheaper cost for the district, but he can't possibly be saving as many cogs that way even in the long term as he'd have gained immediately by chopping - while also gaining bonus food!

We'll see if leaving forests actually intact early turns out to be a decent play though. I dunno if they can spread like in Civ4, but at least they keep going up in value as you advance, and it might be worthwhile to save them for a timing push, chopping out an advanced military in rapid time around the empire. Of course, as far as timing pushes with high-value units go, it might be hard to beat "settlers, builders, and escorts right at the beginning of the game...."

[MJW (ya that one)]

FYI I'm spamming Yuri's thread about Soren to see if Sullla notices the post count. I'm done now.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I agree with Bacchus. Two settlers, RIGHT NOW, is just too much especially on this cramped map.

[RefSteel]

I thought about the possibility of intentionally spamming at times not relating to gameplay after Sullla's posts inferring things from lurker traffic, but realized immediately that it would be interfering unfairly in the game. Don't do that. Players can make these kinds of inferences at their own risk, of course; half the time the lurkers will be running off on an irrelevant tangent anyway and the player will be jumping at ghosts. But we shouldn't be creating ghosts explicitly for them to jump at.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Sorry for responding to the trolling. I was going to use a metaphor about defining true love on the basis of the number of upvotes someone receives on social media (everything else is subjective!) but then I realized the post I was responding to was basically just a word salad made from hot chile peppers. I do favor getting back to Civ though!

Your not helping with the spam!

I do believe that saying "it's subjective so it doesn't count!" like Yuri did isn't a good argument against anything like my arguments. You could say an argument like that is very weak and mostly fluffy conjecture/projection but saying that it isn't argument at all is LOL because everything is subjective. You can always be wrong anyway.