The First Civ6 Lurker Thread

[MJW (ya that one)]

Sullla wrote: "TheArchduke researched Mysticism civic after he picked up his government, then put the free envoy in Yerevan. Whaaaaaat? I can't understand why someone would want to drop an envoy in here for +2 faith instead of in Cultural city-state Vilnius for +2 culture. It makes no sense at all."

It makes sense to me and I´m surpised that he is underestimating this move. Even he himself has stated few lines back that "Yerevan is now up to 5 warriors, sheesh. That brings it up to 100 power in military scoring, higher than any of the players in this game. Beware the city states!".

HOW SURPRISED HE WOULD BE AFTER OPENING NEXT SAVE WITH DOW ON HIM AND LEVYED YEREVAN MILITARY KNOCKING ON HIS UNDEFENDED CAPITAL!?

Unfortunatelly, TheAchduke did not use Diplomatic league to get additional envoy, as then single envoy would grant him suzerain status.

Btw. this is also major reason, not yet mentioned, why you dont keep city state in your backlines if you dont plan to maintain suzarain status.

This plan would take gold archduke doesn't not have.

[shinghand]

You need 2 iron only in cities without an encampment. And the cheaper upgrade is a good thing. There is no good alternative.

Why's that a good thing? Just curious.

I'd imagine upgrading old units with promotions > new units, so why should making new units have more restrictions?

There is no real alternative. If you force upgrades to use 2 resources you run into the big problem of resource-scarcity. You can't ruin a players game just because the map-generator gave him only 1 Alu/oil/iron.
If you say 1-resource-upgrades can only happen in Encampment-cities then you have the big hassle of shuffling Units from their current location to the next encampment with the current Movement-rules and 1UpT. Not really a fun idea.

The problem in Civ6 is that production is usually scarce and the limiting factor while money is easy to come by. This makes upgrading so (too ?) powerful.

Yes, that is true, but then why not allow BOTH upgrades and production to use 1 resource? Why make one harder than the other?

I suspect much of this is a gentle (or heavy, depending on your opinion) push so that upgrading is favoured over building... they don't want there to be hordes and hordes of 1 UPT units such units are always stuck in traffic and waiting in line to get to the action.

[rho21]

But here we see at least 2 players deliberatly delaying tech to build more cheap ancient crap (extremely unnatural) for upgrading. And then there are even more reasons to upgrade(less resource cost)?

The delaying of Archery has nothing to do with resources. Archers don't need a resource. That delay comes  simply from the cheap upgrade (30gold) and the fact that Archers are far superior to slingers. Both things needed else you wouldn't stand a chance against the Barbs and the usual early AI-attacks.

And don't forget that slingers cost no upkeep while archers cost 1 gold per turn. The longer your virtual army (i.e. gold plus ancient crap) can sit around, the better.

[Molach]

I think virtual army like this is a poor concept. It encourages players to build ancient crap because production being so scarce and gold not.

Upkeep is another thing, upkeep is paying and feeding your soldiers. Whether they wield slings or bows should be irrelevant for upkeep. (quick fix - make upkeep tied to era, not unit type).

Civ IV got these mostly correct - upkeep is upkeep and upgrading is expensive (and cuts into your research spending).

Result is that army strength is hard to evaluate when deciding who to invade - lot of outdated crap + gold >> small but modern army.

And I think getting big by eating neighbour will be a far worse problem here than in civ iv. Because in IV the big empire would often be behind in tech after the war/lots of maintenance in cities, so a runaway might lose a space race victory to a smaller but advanced civ. He might be forced to attack such a civ.

Here, runaway will not only have the big size/production but also more tech and culture. He can safely defend and win.

But game is still in the balance, yuris and teh attacking sullla while he is busy elsewhere will be interesting.

[Rowain]

Yes, that is true, but then why not allow BOTH upgrades and production to use 1 resource? Why make one harder than the other?

Your reason (1UpT) is a good one. Another possible reason. If everything only needs 1 resource than encampments are rather useless. But yeah amount of Units is a problem that get solved thatway.

I think virtual army like this is a poor concept. It encourages players to build ancient crap because production being so scarce and gold not.
....
Civ IV got these mostly correct - upkeep is upkeep and upgrading is expensive (and cuts into your research spending).

Uhm civ4 has the virtual army too exactly because of upkeep and monetary-scarcity. Legions of Axes, Spears, wariors, Archers etc  have been build with just 1 token-hammer to allow emergency whips. How often have we read: xy is in slavery so he could whip an Army in an instant = bad target or Haha z has just revolted out of slavery so no cheap Army for him - attack!

Upkeep is another thing, upkeep is paying and feeding your soldiers. Whether they wield slings or bows should be irrelevant for upkeep. (quick fix - make upkeep tied to era, not unit type).

Result is that army strength is hard to evaluate when deciding who to invade - lot of outdated crap + gold >> small but modern army.

That was maybe a reason why military strength did include the banc-account in Civ5 (and start of civ6). But  as you can follow the strength of your opponents and how much money they have it is not so hard to judge.

And I think getting big by eating neighbour will be a far worse problem here than in civ iv. Because in IV the big empire would often be behind in tech after the war/lots of maintenance in cities, so a runaway might lose a space race victory to a smaller but advanced civ. He might be forced to attack such a civ.

Here, runaway will not only have the big size/production but also more tech and culture. He can safely defend and win.

Where there a civ4-game with 4 players and 1 of them eating his neighbour you can bet he would win too. The problem is the fewer players the bigger the first eliminating his neighbour becomes.

But game is still in the balance, yuris and teh attacking sullla while he is busy elsewhere will be interesting.

As long as they don't start fighting each other they stand a chance.

[Brian Shanahan]

Sullla wrote: "TheArchduke researched Mysticism civic after he picked up his government, then put the free envoy in Yerevan. Whaaaaaat? I can't understand why someone would want to drop an envoy in here for +2 faith instead of in Cultural city-state Vilnius for +2 culture. It makes no sense at all."

It makes sense to me and I´m surpised that he is underestimating this move. Even he himself has stated few lines back that "Yerevan is now up to 5 warriors, sheesh. That brings it up to 100 power in military scoring, higher than any of the players in this game. Beware the city states!".

HOW SURPRISED HE WOULD BE AFTER OPENING NEXT SAVE WITH DOW ON HIM AND LEVYED YEREVAN MILITARY KNOCKING ON HIS UNDEFENDED CAPITAL!?

Unfortunatelly, TheAchduke did not use Diplomatic league to get additional envoy, as then single envoy would grant him suzerain status.

Btw. this is also major reason, not yet mentioned, why you dont keep city state in your backlines if you dont plan to maintain suzarain status.

As far as I understand suzerain mechanics, it doesn't kick in until three envoys are invested.

[RefSteel]

We don't even know if Sullla is correct, do we? Couldn't TheArchduke be saving the free envoy (or putting it elsewhere, where Sullla hasn't noticed it) and gotten the Yerevan one by completing some random quest like "research mysticism" or "move a scout unit onto a resource tile" or "remember to eat lunch today" or something?

[Bacchus]

Yuri missed a trick locally by not killing the slinger that teh had the audacity to use as a roadblock. Two eagle warrior hits should have been enough to take it out.

Globally, however, this may well be a blessing, as teh is not the target yuris should be pursuing, he is letting very immediate considerations overshadow strategic imperatives. Can't let Sulla eat Archduke alone and legions are so close.

[Ituralde]

Yeah, if Yuris stays back and captures Stockholm plus The Archdukes closest city, he's back on track!

[Rowain]

Yeah, if Yuris stays back and captures Stockholm plus The Archdukes closest city, he's back on track!

Yeah but yuris has now 2 warriors blocked by teh's culture and Warrior.

6 more turns to the Encampment district at the capital, which should be the first district of the game to be finished.

Going by yuris screenshot he should finish his campus earlier than that. Understandable that Sulla doesn't know this as you don't see the capital in the diplo-window.