4X theorycrafting: leafing the tech tree

[Sirian]

Probably the best way to implement "levels" on techs is to make sure they advance off a different currency.

Let the "trunk" operate as the "tech tree" but allow maturing of some individual techs but not others, and require a different form of investment. So, for instance, "beakers" push the "trunk", while "specialists" push the leaves, but only some of them, and none if you run no specialists. Then the game would see the rise of "specialization", without transforming the tech-up process in to a giant mess.

Further define the specialization by having different factions lean different ways (special "extra" levels on some techs, loss of access to levels on others) and toss in some dice rolls to extend conundrums and force players to adapt a bit instead of one canned strat fits all games.


- Sirian

[TheHumanHydra]

Have any games experimented with building in "levels" for major technologies in the tree, effectively leaf technologies which somehow augment or develop the original bonus granted by the tech?

In Hearts of Iron III (and I assume the others), the techs are largely levelled, with some granting new units or singular global bonuses.



Now, the levels aren't really optional branches off the main path - you need to get the levels as high as possible in your chosen fields for your units to be effective and to unlock stuff.

[Mardoc]

Probably the best way

Why?

[Sirian]

Probably the best way

Why?

...it's worth noting that in 4X games alot of hte complexities come from simple systems interacting, and when designers try to make the individual systems themselves complex, it makes games increasingly difficult to understand and that can break enjoyment for people...

How do we measure points in space? X, Y, Z coordinates. Simple vectors overlap to define space. ... KISS

Adding a second vector of advancement can establish depth without requiring players to whip out their spreadsheets in order to be able to make the next tech choice.

We get all the permutations without as many dependencies and lockouts -- more strategy, less funneling in to "one right choice" or rarefied exploits that become must-do for competitors once discovered.


- Sirian

[antisocialmunky]

So you are saying that its better to be able to research things in parallel rather than sequence? That works fairly well in Civ6 because its flavorful and well defined. Though, you don't need parallel resources for that, you just need to be able to split your research across multiple tech trees. A bunch of older 4x games (especially space ones) let your split research across multiple techs but that sort of tech progression has fallen out of favor as of late.

[Bacchus]

I like the different resources idea, it opens space for some nice flavour, makes learning the game a little more intuitive, and the balance comes out easier indeed. One downside would be that a switch of focus from trunk to leaves becomes much more fidgety, with citizen reallocation.

[Sirian]

So you are saying that its better to be able to research things in parallel rather than sequence?

That isn't how I would describe what I suggested. I would apply different verbs to the different paths. (Not out of a semantics-based marketing scheme, but because the two activities would NOT be the same activity twice.)

To research: advance up the trunk. Can eventually grab all items.

To specialize: deepen effects of some researched items. CANNOT grab all effects, must choose a limited number, spread around at player's discretion (and likely expanding via various unlocks).


Whether this is the best possible way to handle research is a separate question. On the question of "If we are doing trunk plus leaves, how do we do it?" this is my first guess. I'd start here, stand up a prototype, and seek feedback.


- Sirian

[T-hawk]

If different currencies are what makes for a good 4x game, then Civ 5 must be one of the best ever. I can count eight: food, production, gold, research, culture, faith, city-state influence, and Great Person points.

Seriously, that description does fit Civ 5. Research up the trunk to eventually grab all items. Then there are specialized tracks in the policy trees to deepen particular areas, of which you must choose a limited number at your discretion, subject to unlocks.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, the advanced policies of Civ5 are almost like leaves, and may have worked better if clearly presented as such. Not that they worked badly, on the contrary, one of the better aspects of the game. Also, there wasn't any way to switch dynamically from producing science, which was largely just a passive get off the total population, to producing culture. Otherwise, I don't think Sirian at all made a point that "different currencies are what makes for a good 4x game", not even that leafing the tech tree makes for a better 4x game.

[Sirian]

Sid put in three currencies to the original Civ. ... Master of Orion had only one. ... Which game did I like better? T-hawk should know the answer.

Sid split his most complicated currency in to three spending avenues. Orion split its only currency across eight avenues of spending, and within those, there were additional layers and nuances, special cases which piggybacked extra spending avenues on top of the core paths.

But Orion didn't have a tree or a trunk or anything. It had a ladder for a tech "tree", split in to sub-sections and individual rungs, then duplicated across six topics, with some of the rungs randomly missing from each game, and racial leanings affecting the number of rungs present.


I reject the Civ5 comparison to what I suggested earlier in this thread, though. In Civ5, the social policies and self-contained, and in Civ6 they are a second tech tree. What I proposed would have the "leaves" dependent upon the player's choices along the main trunk. They would progress through some method other than slowing research up the trunk, but they would not stand alone. ... And within what I said, there are only two currencies implied. I certainly didn't say anything about half a dozen other unique currencies. I also didn't say what would be geneating the two tech currencies -- the sources need not necessarily be divorced entirely from one another.

The thread title is "4X Theorycrafting", which is a larger subset than "Civ Theorycrafting". This is just idle speculation. Although I did, personally, find the Civ division of currencies starting to grow old on me personally by the time I was in the midst of working on Civ4. Franchises with long life and many iterations are understandably sought by publishers, but I would like to see some more new entrants in the genre, which do some new things.


- Sirian