The First Civ6 Lurker Thread

[shinghand]

Seriously, I feel like a lot of the criticism is way over the top.  Replace Sullla with a "normal" player who e.g. doesn't roll a dozen maps to find out what to expect from this mapscript in advance, and who chooses Any Other Civ after TheArchduke took Rome so there's no super-mirror for comparison, and Northern Rome would be doing okay here.

Also, don't excoriate a player for missing something just because it seems obvious to you - least of all when you haven't thought his situation through yourself.  TheArchduke may not need iron to upgrade Warriors to Legions, but he does need an iron mine to complete the tech!

Ah, that makes more sense. It didn't occur to me because he's halfway to Apprenticeship.

Yea, let's not be too harsh on anyone playing the game, whether it's this game or another - part of what makes RB a good community is that people are welcoming and willing to teach.

[Singaboy]

My apologies then sounding too harsh. Maybe it's just that I would love to see someone give Sullla a run for the money. I would most probably play similar to the other three because I still have a life besides civ. Sullla seems to live civ 6.

[Bacchus]

Never excoriate players in the threads full stop, it doesn't help anybody, and only raises the chance they will throw the towel in.

I don't really see a problem with criticism here though, as long as it's specific things that are criticised, not the person. Better to have mistakes pointed out than not.

In any case, what I find exasperating about Archduke is not the mistakes in the game, but the decision to enter the game with this spirit. He's been failing morale checks pretty much from the get go, and I think it's worth pointing out that you owe the other players a sense of confidence, much like you owe turnplaying. If you don't feel it's there, don't sign up. There's a world of difference between "I'll get roflstomped, but man am I gonna give it my best shot" and "I'm so outclassed I don't even really care, let others play it out". In Civ, much like in anything else, so much performance comes just from caring and trying and putting the time in, for example to check information, even if you can't (yet) interpret it in a sophisticated way.

[kjn]

I have to agree with both RefSteel and Bacchus here.

Yes, I think we should be allowed to be critical of the various decisions that the players take, just as Bacchus notes. I also agree with him that any such critique must be factual and concrete, and grounded in decisions made, not the be about the person.

I also agree with RefSteel that right now the critique is approaching shitstorm levels. Partly that is because of the dearth of information: we know more about Archduke's play and decisions via Sullla than via himself, and that puts a double filter on our ground for analysis and critique, and I think everyone should be aware of that.

But I still think it behooves us to treat Archduke as a fellow RealmsBeyonder.

[Rowain]

Unfortunately Constantinople is in "occupied" status right now, which means that all of the yields are cut in half and the city can't grow. This will persist until TheArchduke formally cedes the city to me in a peace treaty (which he certainly won't do) or until he's eliminated.

That is exactly the reason why Archduke should use his money to upgrade his 2 warriors to Legions in 3 turns *. Lose the capital but make Sulla pay for his invasion by refusing to cede anything and try to stay alive.

*) I really hope he did not cashrush a warrior vs 5 Legions.

[oledavy]

I share Singaboy's frustration, it would have been nice to see a vaguely competitive MP game, but I can't say I really expected a whole lot else from this game. At any rate, based on this lurker thread, I think the game has accomplished Sullla's goal of generating interest in Civ6.

Let's not be too hard on the Archduke, it's easy to be critical when you are omniscient. It would also behoove us to remember this is the first Civ6 game played on this site; there is a lack of precedence for how to do well at these things.

Archduke: When you read this, I hope you will find some constructive critiques in this thread and will not be too dismayed by the criticism. Additionally, I hope you'll be back for another game in the future after this one

[shinghand]

I share Singaboy's frustration, it would have been nice to see a vaguely competitive MP game, but I can't say I really expected a whole lot else from this game. At any rate, based on this lurker thread, I think the game has accomplished Sullla's goal of generating interest in Civ6.

Let's not be too hard on the Archduke, it's easy to be critical when you are omniscient. It would also behoove us to remember this is the first Civ6 game played on this site; there is a lack of precedence for how to do well at these things.

Archduke: When you read this, I hope you will find some constructive critiques in this thread and will not be too dismayed by the criticism. Additionally, I hope you'll be back for another game in the future after this one

Hear hear!

FWIW he's been a good sport about playing til the end.

Is there any news about a map editor for Civ 6? I think this more than anything (even the lack of pitboss!) hamstrings MP play.

[Mardoc]

Seriously, I feel like a lot of the criticism is way over the top.  Replace Sullla with a "normal" player who e.g. doesn't roll a dozen maps to find out what to expect from this mapscript in advance, and who chooses Any Other Civ after TheArchduke took Rome so there's no super-mirror for comparison, and Northern Rome would be doing okay here.

I see one more factor that I find concerning about Civ6 MP balance: I don't see much of any way to react to a foe.  Sullla went from being weaker than a city state to 3x the next closest in the course of something like 2 turns due to the power of upgrades.  From where I'm sitting, it appears that TheArchduke immediately went for his best counter, starting the research of Iron Working, building warrior(s), and trying to keep an eye on Sullla.  But he couldn't accelerate his research in any way, couldn't really rush production, and has no real way to boost his gold either.  Further, I don't see much of any way he could have had warning, other than 'this is about the time that Rome could get to Legions'.  Contrast to Civ4, where you can generally keep an eye on an opponent's Power, can emergency whip/draft an army, and can build enough units to keep a scouting network out where it will do some good.

How do you counter a timing attack like this except to get there first?  Suppose TheArchduke had built a dozen warriors, that still wouldn't let him fight off Legions.  If he raced Sullla to legions, and won, shouldn't he have attacked?  In which case it would be Sullla dying a couple turns before he could fight back.  I don't really think that a quick-draw duel is all that interesting of a strategic game.  It seems like large jumps in effectiveness between generations + upgrades combine to allow extremely large jumps in combat power that can't be matched by any other means.

Is there something about this setup that pushes for this result?  Or is it inherent in Civ6?  Keep in mind that I don't own the game, so maybe I'm assuming things above that aren't true, that Archduke could have done and didn't.

[Molach]

Cheap upgrades and no way to reduce rush cost by partially building a unit? Designed for surprise wars.

Defenders just need a flock of old units ready to upgrade in case of war, and all will be well. Preferably with a useles civic 1 turn from completion to switch into the super-upgrade policy. Oh and a stack of cash. But every turn that goes by where you can leave old trash unupgraded is +gold in the bank.

So building a few too many warriors/slingers is an investment for the future - people know its no use attacking because you can just upgrade. 

Would only work with barbs off.

On another note - diplo went out of fashion in civ iv. But maybe civ6 would benefit from it? In some form? People can become de facto allied in 4, but here in 6 I think allies would want to coordinate moves/not trip over each other units.


I

[Bacchus]

Yeah, pretty much all you need to do is keep garrisons, not exactly a huge ask. Tracking gold reserves is no different from tracking power, you just have to always bear in mind that gold reserves can be freely turned into power, especially powerfully around certain techs.

Also, even before upgrades Sulla had something like 3x the military of Archduke, plus a fleet. Just having a couple of galleys would have done A LOT for defense here. At minimum, the city will never have been blockaded, and that's already a giant help.

Finally, Archduke has a choppable rainforest in the capital, and even a builder with a spare charge. But for some reason that builder is sitting on a tile where it can't even hypothetically do anything.

Overall, redundancy and risk management, it's kinda important in strategy.