[SPOILER] PB37: Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most aggressive of them all?

[Krill]

Thank you CML, mack and Rusten. You just made this early game so much easier.

Thoth, we're getting pottery after Oracle. Chopping all forests and overflow two whips out of worker and settler to try and 1 turn it.

[Thoth]

Oracle in capital before 2nd city?

Agriculture after Polytheism?  or after Pottery?

So 2 early workers + workboat, 3rd worker at size 4?  Whip chain from size 6? or is there time to get to 8?

[greenline]

I guess that's one way to beat Bismarck to it...

[Krill]

No point going Oracle before second city. Will definitely get second city and settler. Question is tech path and how to get 70 hammers and all 4 forests chopped between finishing priesthood and finishing Writing, when competing with a team going Fishing, Agriculture, BW to Pottery and will then go for a religion and oracle to MC.

[Krill]

I guess that's one way to beat Bismarck to it...

Bismark was the right choice IMO. With dtay having Aztecs, although they do not require AGG to be good, it's given he would go with AGG to benefit from the bonus early on. PRO just bumps him up the early game a bit. I pay 60 hammers then I get a border pop and growth boost. dtay pays 60 hammers and gets the same, plus maintenance decrease. But he gets either the culture and maintenance decrease, or the growth boost after only 30 hammers. Much, much better than Inca. It's just he gets that from the combination of leader and civ. With Shaka gone, IMP nerfed (and Genghis of Zuliu having a pretty poor run of things in RtR) Toku is a straightforward choice.

But Bismark is the best pick on the return of the snakepick. The only IND in the game, sound start techs, no competition for Henge. The downside is the lost RI synergy, but that doesn't matter if they pick up Mids. The one issue they have is that Metal Casting is too much of a bonus to easily give up, but I would really, really not want them to get that. Cheap forges are great. Expensive forges not so much. The issues they have are the tech constraints of getting there, they need BW and Pottery and Priesthood. I only need Writing and Priesthood to actually finish Oracle, so theoretically I have lower tech costs for an Oracle run to Aesthetics and a route to the GLib that costs less than setting up HA.

Writing is 193 beakers. With Priesthood and either AH or Pottery that's a 1.4 modifier, for something like a 9 turn tech, around 135 base beakers due to rounding. Without AH, that's close to 11 turns. The capital makes 5hpt just from the cow and city, a single grass mine bumps that to 8hpt, that's 9 turns to reach 72 hammers. 80 hammers from chops, means 2 workers chopping to 8-9 turns because the forests are so far apart. Priesthood is 96 beakers with a 1.2 modifer, so a 6 turn tech.

So basically, Mining>BW is mandatory due to forest chops. After that, the question is if AH is worth it. Pottery won't be, it would take too long and Bismark can Oracle MC. Due to the furs, AH could be worth 5 commerce/turn. It's a 161 beaker tech at 1.4 modifier, so again 9 turns to research but cuts off about 30 beakers from the cost of Writing. The furs have to be worked for something like 15-17 turns to make back the cost of AH as a rough estimate. So AH would need to be researched before Mining to have an opportunity to payback in the time frame. After Poly, AH would be researched eot34, if theoretically researched before Poly would finish eot24. Unfortunately, the settler is completed eot33, but still that's pretty close and we know that with Hinduism in the capital, the borders pop and bring the fur into culture eot32. So that could easily be improved, but not worked, by the second city unless we did that at size 1 and really fuck up expansion. OTOH, stealing rice means growth and using the fur from T41 at the latest.

I don't think it's worth it. Pottery plus Wheel are only about 190 base beakers total, plus Meditation is cheaper than Poly. AH>Writing is roughly 250. Might even have to go Meditation and suck up that loss, and then also go Mining>BW>Priesthood>Writing at 1.2 and only then go back for the Wheel and Pottery and AH! If CML saves all the chops, he would only need to overflow 20 hammers and time the chops and he could easily 1 turn Oracle after Priesthood. He can even use a settler as a buffer if it's difficult to line up the chops, and as Bismark 4 workers is not hard to reach by that point. I need to consider the ramifications of this, but it's not looking pretty.

[Mr. Cairo]

(and Genghis of Zuliu having a pretty poor run of things in RtR)

I resent that remark.

[Krill]

I think that's the best the combo has done. And it's all down to someone not getting archery and a weird map that had easily accessible copper. Same with PB16. Zulu have a trap where they ignore CoL and courthouses and the economy grinds to a halt, and do generation means they can't do anything without neighbours knowing.

[Krill]

I'm also wondering about alternative Oracle targets. HBR is so easy to get and then I'd only be 3XP from HE...Monarchy requires no additional tech. IW? Might be a first. Denial is important and i want it for the GP points, so the tech cost is less interesting for me than usual. Aesthetics is good because it's expensive and the main gate to an early HE, but there is still the 200 hammer cost of HE...Decisions decisions...

[Mr. Cairo]

I think that's the best the combo has done. And it's all down to someone not getting archery and a weird map that had easily accessible copper. Same with PB16. Zulu have a trap where they ignore CoL and courthouses and the economy grinds to a halt, and do generation means they can't do anything without neighbours knowing.

Yeah, while I wasn't actually running the civ during those early turns, I can see how Imp combined with Agg Zulu can be a trap, expecting the cheap Ikhandas to negate the need for Courthouses while REXing way too fast.

Minor PB34 spoiler:

When I took over on Turn 75, my inherited economy was absolutely awful. By far the largest empire but I was barely breaking even at 0% science. Of course, there were also no cottages.

[Thoth]

I'm also wondering about alternative Oracle targets. HBR is so easy to get and then I'd only be 3XP from HE...Monarchy requires no additional tech. IW? Might be a first. Denial is important and i want it for the GP points, so the tech cost is less interesting for me than usual. Aesthetics is good because it's expensive and the main gate to an early HE, but there is still the 200 hammer cost of HE...Decisions decisions...

BORING!!!

Oracle into Aesthetics, build SoZ while teching HBR then build stables and HE unit while teching Literature. Add HE then build an army worthy of Mordor and go bonk some heads.


Go big or go home!