[PB37 SPOILER] Coeurva, Bacchus -- Cyrus of Carthage

[Bacchus]

If he double-moved to deny us vision on the galley that was just completed, that is definitely NOT legal.

I guess we need a chariot-axe pair on the island. Can we do something like this -- start with the chariot trick you talked about, galley returns to Whitehall vicinity via clams with a pillage, an axe steps onto the galley, galley unloads units on the island, comes back to pick up settler. Does that timing work? It'd be beautiful if it did.

What are we keeping in Whitehall for garrison? After settling we'll be just as exposed to naval forking as he is. In fact, with that new city where it is, there is now a continous threat of a 1-turn amphibious assault from either side. Did Savant realize he is setting up this Minas Tirith - Minas Morgul situation?

Which leads me onto the next point, the chop in Whitehall may be best used for another galley. Immediate naval superiority on this theatre, achieved via the Great General is pretty valuable. We can prevent galleys built in Harmondale ever reaching Fountain Head, which is the best way for preventing an amphibious assault from it. Because the tile 1E of clam controls the entire bay even with 2 move, we may not even need NavII just yet, Combat3 on them would be even sexier.

But we do now have an exciting trap -- at any point, if we see just one Galley, staying at what Savant thinks is safely out of reach, we can sink a General into a Galley of our own, give it Morale-Combat4 and assassinate the damn thing.

On settler production, Harmondale has all this pop that can be whipped into anything, but if it hasn't, maybe we are ok for now.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, a two-front war is not a fun prospect, but land operations between us and Savant are not easy to carry out, and I would even rather lose Ignis (provided the GS still comes out of it before that), then cede initiative in the western sea.

[Bacchus]

@Mardoc (and for wider lurker discussion):

On the Harmondale unit completion situation -- Coeurva would have seen any unit that completes there, provided that he was logged in at turn roll, and he should have seen it anyway whenever he logged in, had Savant stayed in turn order. Given this, can we legitimately request that Savant informs us by PM of any unit he completes in Harmondale? I mean, it's in-game information that we properly have access to, as long as our units stands there, denying this information to us is a pure timer play. If he doesn't inform us, Couerva could just wait to be always the last to play, thus ensuring that he is always logged in during a turn roll and can see production results. But obviously no-one actually wants to do that.

[Coeurva]

Bacchus, I don't think I stated the situation well -- last turn, playing first, I moved Ari (the warrior observing Harmondale) into a forest, from where he can't see inside the city, to not leave him exposed to Savant's chariot. Didn't see any galley then.

This turn, Savant played first, leaving the chariot unmoved. It's essentially my own fault for not moving Ari 7 again when I could have done so, not Savant's.

[Bacchus]

Ah, OK, I didn't realize that. However, I now thought this -- whatever Savants plans, we are planning on planting a city in just a few turns in what is now a clearly contested area. Because there is even a possibility of a settling race, I think we can legitimately request that Savant stays in turn order, that he himself chose in the first place.

Him breaking it kinda suggests that he doesn't think we are in a race, but I don't think this should matter. There is clearly at least a very real possibility that turn order may matter.

[Coeurva]

Re turn order, the galley will begin another forced turn-split anyway when we move it, regardless of whether we declare.

I guess we need a chariot-axe pair on the island. Can we do something like this -- start with the chariot trick you talked about, galley returns to Whitehall vicinity via clams with a pillage, an axe steps onto the galley, galley unloads units on the island, comes back to pick up settler. Does that timing work? It'd be beautiful if it did.

Mostly, yes. I'll have to log in again and change our Sicil build from library to axeman (screw the sheep), but can do.

What are we keeping in Whitehall for garrison?

Nothing, due to the barb axe further south requiring the other chariot. Depending on where this axe moves next (because it could move in against either Rhapsody or Lifeblood), this chariot might be able to turn around and leave Vermin's units to deal with it.

I was planning to whip another axe there on T80, then add units from Sicil while getting out the second galley. Galley chop can be done, I think.

Did Savant realize he is setting up this Minas Tirith - Minas Morgul situation?

Probably. He might think he has no choice, since every other city placement forfeits control of the strait to us. Note that he founded on top of plains incense just to ensure this.

He might also be getting adventurous, thinking our army is all in the south.

On settler production, Harmondale has all this pop that can be whipped into anything, but if it hasn't, maybe we are ok for now.

Six pop at Harmondale right now. Seven at Ironfist. Three at Sorpigal, which is now fully supplied with its resources and terrifying with its absurd food surplus (+10 before lighthouses, and before IW + Calendar adds two bananas).

No whips from him this turn, but Ironfist is somewhat suspicious of building another settler (right after the other), since we've reached size7 at the capital as well. I think it wouldn't be fast enough considering transit time, though.

[Bacchus]

Ok, I think the timelines make sense on everything, I think.

We need to figure out the turn order though, do we request that Savant goes back to the second half of the timer?

Another annoying thing, is that his 3-movers can pop out of Harmondale, and then straight into Fountain Head, without really being exposed to us at all. Even Morale is not enough to reach the tile 3E of Fountain Head, where galleys will go out of Harmondale. The assassin would have to be Flank-NavII-Combat2, which doesn't really give great odds. So until Fountain Head gets its second ring, blocking on the clams with a vanilla Galley is probably best counterplay to anything that sales out of Harmondale.

[Coeurva]

Yes, we should request a turn split in which we move first, as previously. I'll send him a short PM about it.

He did settle Fountain Head on a double-move (it certainly wasn't there when I played T77), and while he couldn't know we'd gain a galley on the very next turn to hit that city, we never saw the work boat that improved the clams (which must have been channeled through Fountain Head, I think -- I see no other way for Savant to even reach that spot within 2t, not even 3-move work boats out of Harmondale) -- and he had no way to know that we didn't build a galley inside Whitehall since he last saw inside, which would have been in range to block the clams.

I don't want to request a reload here, but upholding the turn split he himself initiated should be fine.

[Coeurva]

Never mind, the clams tile actually sees inside Whitehall, so Savant knew we had no galley within range of the clams on T78. Therefore, the move was legal as I see it. I'll just let him know that we were assuming a turn-split to be in place still, but I'm not going to press it if he disagrees, because that will just lead to an endless argument (Savant will say we'd gain a double-move on him, we'll say he gained one on us by playing first on this turn, both sides will argue that their double-move is justified/doesn't matter/whatever)

So if he plays T79 first, that's how it goes.

I was thinking that we can't play T79 first since we'd deny him the chance to spot the galley inside Whitehall. But then again, he couldn't spot it in the first place, if he had upheld the turn split on this turn and the next... Really tangled.

EDIT: Proposed PM, but didn't send yet because I'm not sure whether our case is fully justified. We wanted the split to go on and assumed it would (I mean, he still has a chariot that could poach our warrior near Harmondale, for instance), but Savant probably thought there was no reason to continue it, and I can understand that too.

Hi Dark Savant,

our team had been assuming an ongoing turn split in which you moved second; on this turn (T78), though, you've moved and finished turn before us.

We see this as a double-move. You may have thought it gave you no advantage; we disagree.

For the following turns, we'd like to return to the original turn split with us playing first.

If you're not fine with that, since it will also grant us a double-move now, let us know. The alternative is a reload, but it will force everyone to play T78 again.

Cheers,
Coeurva

[Bacchus]

It's really not tangled, he broke a turn split for no reason whilst situation on the border is complex for a whole number of reasons, he shouldn't have done that, and he had no reason to do it anyway -- the guy logs in three hundred times per turn at all points of the day, it's not that the turnsplit was inconvenient for him.

And yeah, I can see the reason to not engage in an argument, but really, he has no ground to protest