Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Nicolae Carpathia]

That dumbass was going to vote for Trump regardless, whether the Democrats nominated Clinton, Bernie, Biden, Webb, or the reanimated corpse of Jackson. He just feels bad that Trump tore off the mask of sanity and exposed the howling race hatred and grievance.

And what do you mean "disagree with the alt-right on many things" you don't start off with the idea those freaks have some good ideas and then steadily carve off their ideas you find objectionable.

[DaveV]

Yes, Fred's argument is exactly the kind of what-about-ism and false moral equivalence that led people to say, "I'm going to vote for the racist, misogynist, know-nothing, who has zero qualifications for the job and a toxic personality, because emails."

Yes, punks with clubs are bad, but nazis and white supremacists are reprehensible. The failure to call out Trump for refusing to acknowledge that is a sad sign of the erosion of our society. Armed groups? Have people already forgotten the days before the election, when Trump was darkly pronouncing, "It's a rigged system, I'm telling ya, folks," and the militia goons were threatening literal revolution if he lost?

And to address the polling question: I don't see Trump's support going any lower as long as so many people are watching the 24-hour Trump commercials masquerading as news on Fox. His supporters dismiss any arguments against him as liberal and/or media bias. Unfortunately, Trumpism seems to have become a religion, where any questioning of the dear leader becomes an attack on the adherents of the faith.

[darrelljs]

As a left-leaning American I was really hoping that Trump's victory would cause Dems and the Left to do some soul searching. Instead I've just been disappointed at how many of my liberal friends just want to vilify the Right and ignore perfectly valid viewpoints like Fred"s. I think the only lesson the Left seems to be learning is that if obstructionism and villifying the other worked for Republicans then it must be the way to go for.

This.  Exactly this.  All the Trump stuff hasn't disappointed me because I never expected better.  I had hoped foolishly that the Democrats would listen to middle America with an open heart and an open mind, but its pretty much the same old "you don't know what your problems are but we do and we'll fix them for you our way" attitude.  Just makes me sad.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

is not an argument. It's completely empty.

If that's the case it should be easy to engage and win them back.  Why dismiss out of hand their viewpoint without bothering to analyze the underlying forces causing the behavior?  I expect Democrats to be data driven, looking for fundamental drivers to address.  This superficial dismissal of any viewpoint as unworthy of engagement....

Darrell

[darrelljs]

And to address the polling question: I don't see Trump's support going any lower as long as so many people are watching the 24-hour Trump commercials masquerading as news on Fox.

The flip side is he could end war, cure cancer and put a man on Mars, but he'd never pass 70% due to all the people who get their news from CNN.

Darrell

[MJW (ya that one)]

And now the wall really is dead. He wouldn't have traded it for so little if he was planning to launch an all-out attack. So the DEMs get a free ride to 2024 and Nicolae Carpathia's strat was the best one. There's no reason for the DEMs to work together with the GOP anymore. Obstructionism is a great way to attack Trump and make him do stupid things (Mueller) and there should never be another GOP President again. The fact that Trump won through proves that the GOP could have done something after GWB lost Latinos by 30% points through. (Edit: They would have been forced to react to getting a pathetic 35% w/ Elian Gonzales if USA were a real democracy and it would have mattered.)

[Mr. Cairo]

As a left-leaning American I was really hoping that Trump's victory would cause Dems and the Left to do some soul searching. Instead I've just been disappointed at how many of my liberal friends just want to vilify the Right and ignore perfectly valid viewpoints like Fred"s. I think the only lesson the Left seems to be learning is that if obstructionism and villifying the other worked for Republicans then it must be the way to go for.

This.  Exactly this.  All the Trump stuff hasn't disappointed me because I never expected better.  I had hoped foolishly that the Democrats would listen to middle America with an open heart and an open mind, but its pretty much the same old "you don't know what your problems are but we do and we'll fix them for you our way" attitude.  Just makes me sad.

Darrell

is not an argument. It's completely empty.

If that's the case it should be easy to engage and win them back.  Why dismiss out of hand their viewpoint without bothering to analyze the underlying forces causing the behavior?  I expect Democrats to be data driven, looking for fundamental drivers to address.  This superficial dismissal of any viewpoint as unworthy of engagement....

Darrell

Ok, you want concrete solutions to America's problems? How about decent access to affordable healthcare? Dems have been trying to do that since Clinton.
Maybe a living wage? Republican controlled states have started passing legislation to prevent cities in their state from increasing minimum wage.
Maybe some way of offering higher education without requiring young people to go into massive debt? Labour reform to stop corporation from exploiting the poorest people in America? Justice reforms that get rid of for-profit prisons and actually try to rehabilitate offenders instead of turning them into career criminals? Banking reform to keep billionaires from gambling with the savings of the middle class comfortable with the knowledge that the taxpayer will bail them out? Maybe going straight to the top and trying to end the power of unlimited spending in political campaigns?
All Democrat policies, and some for sure came about thanks to the threat of Sanders in the primary, but still.

The Democrats have actual solutions, you may not agree with them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

As for looking for solutions from the other side, well, Republicans have made such a habit of obstructionism they even do it to themselves.

[Dreylin]

is not an argument. It's completely empty.

If that's the case it should be easy to engage and win them back.  Why dismiss out of hand their viewpoint without bothering to analyze the underlying forces causing the behavior?  I expect Democrats to be data driven, looking for fundamental drivers to address.  This superficial dismissal of any viewpoint as unworthy of engagement....

Darrell

Right, because all those anti-vaxxers back off their beliefs when confronted with science and evidence.  Research has show that when someone's belief is challenged they fight back against it, it's very hard to change someone's mind if they are not open to having it changed:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

[darrelljs]

Right, because all those anti-vaxxers back off their beliefs when confronted with science and evidence.   

Just like all those anti-GMOers backed off when confronted with science and evidence .

I'm not sure where the discussion goes from here .  Universal healthcare, minimum wage, labor reform...my personal belief is that while these aren't the solutions working class middle America are asking for, they are probably the right solutions for many of their problems.  There is a (IMO legitimate) belief that they are not listened to, but lectured at.  Consistent, respectful engagement can win them over; as a South Park Democrat I'm sure of it.  I'm also sure its not going to happen  .

Darrell

[AdrienIer]

is not an argument. It's completely empty.

If that's the case it should be easy to engage and win them back.  Why dismiss out of hand their viewpoint without bothering to analyze the underlying forces causing the behavior?  I expect Democrats to be data driven, looking for fundamental drivers to address.  This superficial dismissal of any viewpoint as unworthy of engagement....

Darrell

I literally spent the rest of my post quickly addressing all the issues raised. In all of the points save one the argument points at the US left for something that the US right does as well and sometimes does far more. A lot of people on the left tried to convince right wingers of it during the election but no one listened (or not enough anyway).

How are you going to convince those who tweet "where was Obama during Katrina ? Probably golfing" ? Data driven won't work as well in the post-truth era