2.0.9.1 RtR Mod Discussion

[Krill]

A fair amount of discussion took place over hte past week in my PB37 spoiler thread, but I'll just post the current suggestions here:

Minor changes:

Ikhanda: -10% city maintenance (down from -20%)

Work boat: requires no tech (working water tiles still requires Fishing, stolen from Seven and ToW)


Major changes:

Privateer, available at Gunpowder, require Compass, [Copper or Iron]. Strength 6, 4 move, Hidden Nationality, Can Attack without Declaring War. Cost 80 (only change from current stats are tech requirements and loss of sentry).

Galleon, available at Astro, strength 4, 4 move, carries 4 land units. Cost 80 (gains 1 transport capacity)

Caravel, available at Optics, strength 3, 3 move, has +135% attack against privateers. Cost 50 (I checked combat calculator, needs to be +135% otherwise C2 privateers get odds on defense, so this is a nerf to CHM specifically)

That then leaves just the Carrack and EIM to deal with. I'd say Carrack = Caravel + 2 transport capacity, and EIM = Strength 5 galleon, or strength 6 galleon with -35% against privateers?

Other points to consider: Giving Privateer +50% attack against SoL (only attack).

[dtay]

Could you briefly summarize the logic behind the Privateer/Caravel changes? It looks like an attempt to create RPS at sea / stop galleons from being the best combat ship and best transport ship for a meaningful period of time.

Don't immediately see problems with it, just wanted to know the reasoning.

[Krill]

I'll try to post more later, going out now, but yes, RPS system to make rushing Astro have a counter play that is not just rushing Astro yourself. Caravel change is to make Privateers have a counter themselves. SoL suggestion is to counter SoL stacks of a single unit and also enforce combined arms.

Some posts that I've quoted (I wrote them, there is nothing spoilerish in them, purely thoughts regarding those changes)

Astro requires Calendar (probably a given anyway due to resources and happy), Currency (it's a given, it pays itself back and wealth builds speed up tech pace as needed), CoL (Caste, generate 1 GP, throw the GA, get to more GS for Astro bulb), Machinery, Optics, and Astro via a double bulb which is no extra beakers (or a few hundred max depending on map size).

Gunpowder requires Feudalism (1.5K with Monarchy), Guilds (1.5K), Gunpowder (2.5K), but doesn't require Compass, Optics or Astro. Guilds and Optics are a wash, which leaves the cost of Feud and Gunpowder versus that of Astro, and neither Gunpowder or Feud are bulbable. So Privateers come a few turns later in an even race against a straight research of Astro, or up to 15 turns later against a double Astro bulb? That seems OK to me.

I don't think that Moving the Privateer to Gunpowder can be said to limit the effectiveness of an astro beeline by the tech leader given good forward planning. The privateer doesn't come quickly enough to ever fully close that window, what it does do is provide an option for defense to a tech leader that chooses to not rush Astro and instead focus on other techs. And I don't buy the argument that galleons aren't abusable either: there is a counter, and players understand the counter is more galleons of your own. Obviously you're not going to see people get run over by just galleons either as they are just part of a force needed to capture cities.

I do not think SoL need a hard counter before ironclads. I think it would be beneficial if there was a reason to not wander around with single SoL or small stacks of SoL: Giving Privateers (80 hammers) 50/50ish odds against SoL (120 hammers) is enough to make that happen, and keeps combined arms relevant at sea.

Edit: an example. If a privateer has +50% attack against an SoL, it has roughly a 2/3 chance of winning on attack given equal promotions. On defense against SoL, the privateer has ~24% chance of victory depending on promotions. If a frigate is on the same tile as the SoL? The Privateer has 11% odds of victory on attack and the same odds as against the SoL on defense. Such a change to the privateer has no major effect except to support combined arms and is a only a nerf to the SoL in terms of operational usage.

Add to this, SoL are only worth building if an opponent has over committed to building frigates, plus provide slightly better culture defence removal (but same per hammer efficiency as frigates). This sort of change isn't as large as you'd think.

[Krill]

There are other thoughts about the SoL, about making it deal a small amount of collateral (like 20hp max to 3-4 targets), and dropping the ironclad to 1move, but giving it flanking 1 and drill 1 for free and a small number of free strikes or free strike chances, I'll elaborate on that later.

[Krill]

Thoughts about Ship of the Line and Ironclad.

If I were going whole hog and trying to rebuild all naval combat, in addition to the mentioned changes I would make the SoL the only wooden boat able to collateral, but just enough to give other units a small advantage. So just enough to take off a bit of up, not dropping defending units to 50hp, maybe dropping them to only 70 or even just 80hp. They then have a role as stack breakers, but they are slow, so the challenge is getting them into position and stopping them being hit first. An attacking stack of privateers and frigates can sit just out of range and threaten to destroy a stack of SoL.

The change to Ironclads would be much more invasive. If the ironclad is dropped to 1mp, they can be forced to take N1 and N2 to act as zone defenders. Give them F1 to start with, and as they need steel, they can always reach N2. If they are then given D1, there is the option of them acting as stack defenders and zone defenders. Other units can try to move around them and not fight them, but if someone ignores getting Ironclads of there own then a player can get steamrolled by them. Running up the drill one gives them immunity to collateral, and they can be balanced around free strike chances and free strikes.

So an example of ironclads would be 120 hammers, 1 move, start with F1, D1, 1 free strike chance and 1 free strike. Maybe remove tile defence from them and give an extra free strike.

SoL would be 120 hammers, strength 8, max collateral 80%, hits 4 units, 3 moves 50% against frigates.

[GermanJoey]

We talked about this on Discord, but I'll just say here I really don't like this change, but its really hard for me to talk about it in detail without referencing PB37.

However, I can say this. IMHO, the biggest problems with the EIM and the Carrack are the ability to move into someone's culture with whom you are at peace, *then* declare war, and then procede to boat a city. It's just completely stupid. For example, the last pitboss I played in over at badgame ended like this:

Borsche saw the EIM, but didn't know that they wouldn't get kicked out of culture if I wardeced. And even if he did know, how is it in any way fair? How could he defend his coast given that I can fork 5-6 different cities a turn? And what if we had a peace treaty that just expired this turn, and I have the first half of the timer? I could move in with impunity and he wouldn't even have the chance to stop me.

So IMHO, whatever you do with the EIM, remove its Caravel-like abilities please. For the Carrack, maybe make it like a cheaper Galleon, or a cheaper Galleon with the Privateer ability?

[GermanJoey]

And completely unrelated, we also talked on Discord about changing some of the demographics power rankings for various buildings and techs:

Code:

Techs:
    Unchanged:
        2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
        4000 soldiers - Wheel, Metal Casting, Construction, Satellites
        5000 soldiers -
        6000 soldiers - Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
        8000 soldiers - Fission, Bronze Working, Machinery
        10000 soldiers - Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Rocketry, Laser
        12000 soldiers - Gunpowder, Rifling, Military Science

    Changed:
        Alphabet, Compass: 4k -> 0
        Mathematics: 6k -> 2k

        Optics: 0 -> 2k
        Engineering: 0 -> 8k
        Guilds: 8k -> 12k

        Military Tradition: 0 -> 10k
        Astronomy: 4k -> 12k

        Physics: 0 -> 6k
        Steel: 4k -> 10k
        Radio: 4k -> 12k
        Flight: 8k -> 12k
        Refrigeration: 0 -> 8k
        Assembly Line: 8k -> 16k

        Industrialism: 10k -> 20k
        Robotics: 0 -> 20k
        Composites: 5k -> 20k
        Advanced Flight: 10k -> 30k
        Stealth: 5k -> 50k

Buildings:
    Unchanged:
        1000 soldiers - Trading Post, Totem Pole
        2000 soldiers - Walls, Dry Dock, Stable, Forge, Mint, Factory, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
        3000 soldiers - Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
        4000 soldiers - Red Cross, Ger
        6000 soldiers - Military Academy
        8000 soldiers - Heroic Epic, West Point
        10000 soldiers - Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues
        
    Changed:
        Moai Statues: 10k -> 2k
        Mt. Rushmore: 4k -> 10k
        Heroic Epic: 8k -> 10k
        Ironworks: 4k -> 10k
        Chichen Itza: 8k -> 4k
        Scotland Yard: 8k -> 0
        Statue of Zeus: 4k -> 8k
        
        Castle: 0 -> 2k
        Jail: 0 -> 2k
        Mausoleum: 0 -> 2k
        Sacrificial Altar: 0 -> 1k
        Shale Plant: 1k -> 4k
        Coal Plant: 0 -> 4k

[RefSteel]

How could he defend his coast given that I can fork 5-6 different cities a turn?

He could build fifty Workboats and blanket his culture with them (including under your EIM) so there's nowhere you can move without getting teleported out after all! (This is not a real answer. I mean, it would work if he wanted to set fire to all those hammers and pay the maintenance every turn, but it's still not an answer.)

So IMHO, whatever you do with the EIM, remove its Caravel-like abilities please. For the Carrack, maybe make it like a cheaper Galleon, or a cheaper Galleon with the Privateer ability?

The Carrack seems difficult to fix while still keeping it fun and unique. Maybe keep it as-is but remove "Can Explore Rival Territory"? That would be a drawback relative to Caravels for certain situations, but this is also true of a few other civs' unique units.

The other proposed changes are too complex for me to analyze in depth right now, but one jumps out at me: Giving Galleons another cargo slot (equal to Transports!) seems crazy. If it's meant to make up for letting them get eaten by earlier Privateers, I think it's both unnecessary and the wrong way to go about it. If it's to free up hammers to build Caravels and thereby obviate the Privateers, then how does the change provide any real counterplay against a well-played Astro beeline?

(I also hate the idea of Privateers getting a bonus against Ships of the Line, but that's for flavor reasons; I haven't thought about the balance there.)

[Krill]

The point about EIM is understood, and yes, the ability to enter borders without a war dec should be removed.

The Carrack OTOH has the same problem, so it makes sense to also change that to a galleon UU, or change it to a caravel that has 4 moves. Something that isn't a unit that has transport capacity and ability to enter borders.

The reason to consider galleons having another capacity slot is relatively simple: The number of units needed to invade, that have to be carried, can be quite large for an initial invasion. For example, to be able to one turn down an island cities cultural defense if it has a castle, you need 8 accuracy trebs and a single cat. You then need stack defenders, anything up to 6 dedicated units. That's 15 units in a stack, that require 5 galleons to transport, and on top of that you need actual city attackers. 5 Galleons is 400 hammers, if you need a further 9-12 city attackers, that's a further 240-320 hammers just for the boats, up to 720 hammers. If the galleon has an extra transport capacity, then the number of boats needed to carry units are fewer, and that makes it a naval invasion less reliant on the ability to simply spam galleons.

In itself that proposed change is not to do with privateers, but with the current design of naval warfare: it is simply the amount of hammers you can dump into a navy that lets you win unless you are CHM and have 4XP boats, at which point you'll win anyway with even production. This point is not just a revelation from PB37, it is something that has been accepted for a long time. So long as the tech level and promotion levels are even, to defend you just spam galleons. This change is to make it harder to defend just due to production changes, and make players look to other tactical and strategic methods of defending and attacking.

[chumchu]

I have a suggestion that is not naval related but that I think would be an improvement over the current state of the mod.

Swords are too dominant with +50% vs. cities in a way that causes ripples in the system. They are so cost effective that you had to change maces to compensate which leads to the need to change crossbows. As long as you can protect your stack they are only really countered at rifles which makes their age way too long.

I think there is an easier solution, make swords slightly weaker and also make their counters weaker. If we make swords have + 30% city attack and axes +40% vs. melee we still get the situation where axes win in the field and swords in cities but it is not as swingy. Then you do not need to change maces and crossbows. Archers could maybe keep their defense bonus vs swords as they are countered by HA but it is not necessary as they have their use as cheap all purpose garrisons in hill cities without the extra defense vs swords.

Specials: Dog soldiers can keep their 100% without problem as they have counters. Vultures should probably be 20 % to make them uniquely good. Legion should probably have a lower city attack bonus than other swords to compensate for axes being weaker.