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Poll: How many picks should Guardian cost (the effect remains unchanged)?
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1 pick.
58.33%
7 58.33%
2 picks.
41.67%
5 41.67%
Total 12 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

 
Guardian

No. Seravy answered that a few posts back.
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(January 4th, 2018, 20:30)Nelphine Wrote: No. Seravy answered that a few posts back.

Oh, okay.  I must have missed it.   duh  Thanks.
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(January 3rd, 2018, 14:05)Seravy Wrote: I already decided to avoid nodes due to how counterintuitive that is (the defender and the owner of the node can be different people) and boosting stats everywhere would just make it a copy of Tactician and Warlord (and I'm already thinking those two stacking is bad for the game - not because it's too powerful but because it's a far too trivial choice, I don't think I'd ever play warlord without tactician. Once I already commited 2 or 3 (with alchemy) picks to a military strategy, spending one more on it is the obvious choice.)

Thank you for your reply, Seravy.

Your point about nodes is well-taken; I hadn't thought of that.

I disagree with the issue of stacking guardian with other military retorts; that's a lot of points to spend.  I'm one of those that only takes warlord if I'm playing life, and even then I rarely take another military retort besides alchemy.  Stacking as you describe just sounds too expensive to be game-breaking.

(January 3rd, 2018, 14:05)Seravy Wrote: Defense IS the best offense.

Not in your mod it isn't.  smile

I'm an average player at best.  Coming back to this mod, I'm quickly learning that a defensive strategy is a wasted effort, and I need to be able to go full rush as soon as possible.  Even on advanced, on Myrran, I'm struggling to catch up with one or two AI that (a) either want to kill me outright, or (b) can expand across the plane faster than I can.

Consider my choices for retorts.  There is currently no reason that I see to pick guardian over warlord.  Sure, guardian can be applied to fantastic creatures, but so what?  I need every FC I can summon in the field, not sitting idle in a city.  Warlord gives me a boost to every normal unit, not just those who are stationary in my cities.  It's just not worth it for 2 picks.

But it's too good for 1 pick as well.  One of my cities got jumped by three beastmen priests.  I had 1 regular DE swordsman, 3 recruit DE spearmen, and a wall.  The swordsman survived.  He would have died if not for guardian.  So it is useful, but not enough for 2 picks, and not enough given how important aggressive, mobile strategies are now.

I still think that a moderate defensive bonus across all normal units would make the pick worth it without being game-breaking.  If not, then please consider adding an unrest bonus to the retort.  This would make guardian appealing for builds that are weak in unrest buildings or spells.
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I meant having a higher armor on your units you send to attack enemies is worth a million times more than having higher attack strength on the same. There is a reason why tactician is only +1 armor and nothing else and people still use it. Defensive stats are that good.
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Okay, I've played three games with guardian.  Each one with the same setup: advanced, fair everything except minerals and power, which were both maxed.

My build was some variation of the following: 4 nature, 4 something else, myrran, omniscient, guardian, and dark elves.

I forfeited each game.   banghead

Let me first get this out of the way: I'm a weak to average player.  I'm simply not on Seravy's level, or the level of most players who post here.   bow  But I'm not a terrible player, and win most of my normal games.  Also, it might be useful to have the opinion of someone not playing regularly on higher difficultly.  A noob perspective if you will.   shakehead

What I'm saying is I suck.  But I don't think this fact invalidates my test.

I'll restrain my comments to the guardian pick.

It's not worth two points.

In each game, it seemed promising at first.  I'd get raided, and my cities would be able to survive with far less damage than expected given what I had garrisoned there (swordsmen and spearman with a wall).

Then the inevitable wars started.

I thought that I could focus more on creating offensive units at my military cities, and leave other cities with weaker garrisons such as swordsmen, apprentices, the occasional priest or halberdier, with a wall.  The idea being that I could focus most of my resources in creating stacks that would then seek and destroy, leaving a defensive stack behind on my home continent and each city moderatly defended.

Well...no.


From my last game: three troll swordsmen, two with heroism, destroyed my garrison of eight adamantium swordsmen + wall, with no losses.  A stack of 3 dark elf swordsmen, two giant spiders, and four sprites destroyed my garrison of 8 orch-boosted apprentices + wall.  A stack of 9 naga, half with resist elements, took out my city with 8 adamatium cavalry + wall.  That I kinda expected, given poison, but still.  I thought I might have at least one survivor.

So rather than being able to produce stacks of halberdiers and sending them at the enemy, or get to the higher-tier DE units,  I had to refocus on local defense instead.  Meanwhile the AI were churning out sprites, naga, war bears, and DE and troll swordsmen with life buffs, and sending them my way.  By the time I was putting out gargoyles, Horus was garrisoning his cities with water elementals.

Now part of this result is due to my lack of skill.  Part of it is due to what I now think is the way too high difficulty of advanced, and part of it is due to guardian not doing what it promises on the tin.

It needs a buff, or it needs a reduction in cost.  I would have been better served picking warlord instead, in the hope of keeping my cavalry, halberdiers, and galleys alive a little bit longer.
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I think seravy is just assuming anyone who takes guardian or tactician will also have taken warlord, testing guardian in games without warlord doesn't make any sense to me, warlord is the gold standard.
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Out of my depth a bit here, but right now I would probably only go tactician for a Hero-strategy. In such a game Warlord or Guardian would most likely be too expensive for what I would want (Artificer, Famous, Charismatic etc). It's possible that it synergizes well with some high defensive units and Life, but then Guardian would just be overkill for two picks anyway.

I don't see the awesome potential of Guardian + Warlord at all TBH, but I guess I will have to try it properly to make a more informed response. Maybe if it does bait the AI into attacking "bad" targets, it could be worth it ... a little bit. But since Guardian doesn't help you take enemy cities or clear nodes ... what's the big deal?
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No, I don't think I would want Warlord and Guardian in the same game.
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My problem with Guardian is that it provides a [strong] situational benefit for 2 picks.
*a player using it may be frustrated on cases where they rarely need it, or annoyance of repetitive defensive gameplay.
*an AI with guardian may be too frustrating to beat its capital, especially if ai also has warlord or tactician.
*benefits are fairly weak early on, slowing your expansion down.

If keeping the spirit of a limited-benefit guardian but as 1 pick, I'd like it to be stronger for weaker units, replacing the to defend bonus with a +2 armor ... and maybe the +1 to hit with a +2 attack/range.

If keeping as two picks (but mutually exclusive with warlord please), I'd like some non-unit bonus oriented towards defensive playing to make it work 2 picks and [possibly] benefit the early game.
*every now settlement grants a catapult once settled (instead of, or in addition to a swordsman)
*All cities come with 'city walls'
*All cities have +3 scouting
*No loss of pop or buildings after a defending battle is won.
*Units suffer no gold nor upkeep if on garrison.
*Wizard gets +25 skill when defending (or wizard pays less mana when defending) / AI attacking gets -33% skill when attacking.

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