Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[Cornflakes]

Your understanding of the discount formula appears correct. At least that is in line with what I'm experiencing in my duel game.

A mechanics note though on your Jebel Barkl location ... I thought that wonders could not be placed on resource tiles? It looks like you have it marked on an iron tile in your layout. Might want to double check.

[Sullla]

Ah that's right, I had forgotten that Hangzhou was at the -50% growth housing penalty. With that being the case, it's definitely worth it to get Hanging Gardens in there for the +2 housing benefit alone. The wonder is essentially worth an Aqueduct district, a free temple (from the 4 faith/turn), and then the 15% extra growth in all Chinese cities everywhere forever. That will send new cities up to +25% growth from the amenities happiness bonus, and eventually up to +35% growth from Ecstatic happiness after the Colosseum finishes. Food tends to be a bit overrated in Civ6 as compared to production, but that kind of extra edge shouldn't be discounted. Let's do it, I'll send the money your way.

Hmmm, I never thought about potential narrow landbridges between continents but we shouldn't rule it out until we have a chance to explore. Maybe your slinger in the southwest will have a chance to poke around that area and find out. I won't be able to finish exploring the southeast right now, more's the pity. Just too many danged barbarians running around!

Cornflakes: I didn't think about the iron resource blocking a wonder placement. I think that's correct though; Singaboy, you can check to see if the game will let you place the Hanging Gardens on top of your spices resource as a test (obviously don't put the wonder there). If the game won't let you do that, it probably won't let us place Jebel Barkal on that iron spot either. Fortunately the copper resources are bonus resources and not strategic ones, so we can harvest one of them for money and put Jebel Barkal there. A quick look at the map suggests that the northern of the two coppers would get us five core Chinese cities in range of the wonder, and potentially more in the northern tundra wastes later. One way or another we'll be able to land the wonder for a sizable bonus.

I also had a turn to play, albeit a quiet one. Remember that barb scout from last turn?



I didn't think it would choose to go all aggressive on me! This is a good reminder of the frailty of slingers as melee units with their paltry 5 strength. Even with the defensive cover of the forest tile here, the slinger won that trade and dealt about 35 damage. Sheesh. I think the barbarian AI for the scouts tries to investigate cities first, but if they have an actual combat advantage against other units, they will launch an attack themselves. There wasn't a whole lot to do here since anywhere the slinger could run to, the barb scout could follow with its three movement points. Therefore I shot at the barb unit:



Picking up 37 damage and, perhaps more importantly, 3 XP in the process. The slinger is at 7/15 XP right now, and I'm hoping that the barb scout will attack, leaving itself with just a sliver of health remaining, then my slinger can shoot again and finish it off to earn a promotion. Even if this slinger winds up a bit short, I'll get enough XP to promote-heal from one attack against Buenos Aires and that will get this guy back to full strength without having to sit around healing for half a dozen turns. I can shoot across the water with archers from the southern wheat tile and the forested hill tile at no danger to the archers themselves and I'm not too worried. My other slingers in the area either moved up a tile or continued healing.

The trader at Ostia finished and I rebased it to the capital for next turn's use. Inside my second city, I started a settler:



Growth to size 3 takes place next turn, although unfortunately the unhappiness penalty is also going to trigger since I still have no luxuries connected. Singaboy will be supplying me with one in about half a dozen turns via the sugar at his capital. Next turn I purchase the 1/3 forested plains hill tile and go zero food / max production which gets the city to 10 base production/turn before Colonization and the unhappiness penalty kick in. The next settler costs 140 production and that should take just about 10 turns in total to complete. I'll use the capital to knock out some builders for the immediate area and chop towards my first district, a Campus at Roma.



Here's the trade of 50 gold heading over to Singaboy for the aforementioned builder purchase. China's going to be getting even richer soon as Singaboy connects more plantation resources and continues to generate more faith from wonders. We should think about getting a missionary out as soon as China has enough faith to convert the Roman cities and start them exerting pressure on their surroundings in the eastern half of the continent. Every city converted is another 2 gold/turn and that's serious money here in the early game. I think we're doing a pretty good job of leveraging our financial power thus far and translating it into tangible benefits.

Very quiet turn of score tracking. Woden has finished a district; we'll find out the type next turn when it produces a Great Person point. I'm guessing Campus. That's their first district from either player and they are REALLY behind the other three teams. Their development level is about where we were a dozen turns ago - that's very bad in Civilization terms. I'm still wondering what the heck happened to their opening.

[Sullla]

Right after posting, I had a flash of inspiration: Singaboy, let's take the cash-rushed builder in Hangzhou and use a charge to connect the sugars. We were going to do that anyway, and this simply speeds it up by half a dozen turns and causes no loss on the Hanging Gardens project. China gets 2 gold/turn from the plantation sooner and Singaboy can trade me the sugar resource to avoid the unhappiness penalty. (Better yet, he can trade me his SPICES resource on the turn that the builder moves onto the sugar, then I'll accept the trade and take China's spices on the following turn, and then the sugars will be connected on China's turn with no loss of amenities.) Of course that delays the Hanging Gardens for a few turns due to needing to move through the rough terrain to China's north... what do you think? Worth it to get the luxury resource connected faster?

[Singaboy]

Three things here:

1. Barbarian scouts will attack once they have lost their own home camp. This means the scout is homeless which is good news. The bad news is your wounded slinger

2. As for connecting sugar, that is no issue. The builder will initially have 4 charges, one being used for sugar. Then, it will gain a charge once the pyramids are done. However, 4 charges are just short of finishing the wonder. Hence, there will be a need to wait for the builder to move from Quanzhou back to Hangzhou after using it's third charge to finish pyramids in a few turns. Not sure whether it is better to wait for the pyramid charging being done and then connect the sugar at Quanzhou.

3. I read about districts and wonders, they can be placed on top of unrevealed strategic resources. I can't really find any mention about revealed resources, but maybe it is still possible.

[Singaboy]

I calculated again.
a. The builder at Quanzhou will charge the pyramids on T39/40/41 and then move to connect sugar on T44.
b. The builder at Hangzhou could connect sugar on T42 (purchase T39, move T40/41, connect T42).

If we would choose option b , it would delay the finish date of Hanging Gardens from T45 (purchase T39, move T40, charge T41-T45) to
T49 (builder moves from Quanzhou to Hangzhou from T42 to T46, but needs to queue for charges as builder from Hangzhou charges on T45-48)

Summary:
Option a: sugar connected T44, Hanging Gardens done T45
Option b: sugar connected T42, Hanging Gardens done T49

I lean toward option a honestly. Since this turn the builder can't move anyway, you still have the option to veto.

[Singaboy]

Turn 39 is an eventful turn indeed.

First thing, I get a new government entering a new age. This also means a new quest from Lisbon. And boy, am I lucky. I intend to do exactly that




Time to adopt a new government with new civic cards. As planned, I take Discipline and Colonization on top of Corvee and Agoge. This will enable easier fights with barbarians and get the wonder galore going. 

It's time to finally charge the pyramids twice with both builders, with one of them disappearing after its last charge. It gets pyramids from 54 to 147. With two additional charges to come, the overflow into the Holy Site will be quite substantial. The earlier I finish the Holy Site, the better. There is an issue however, which I will highlight later.

I slot in a new civic which is mysticism. However, I had planned to switch off Corvee once mysticism is done to get higher production. Due to the fact that Hanging Gardens will be charged too, I have to switch off mysticism before finishing it in order to time Corvee right.

It's time to beat the barbarian camp to net 50 gold to buy the builder in Hangzhou. At the same time I immediately get the envoy for finishing the quest 

With the additional gold, I buy the builder in Hangzhou. It can't move yet. There is no need to drop the wonder yet as I want to work the hill for now. Hangzhou changes to a settler ready in 5 turns.

Now, the issue at hand: Once the Holy Site in Quanzhou is done, theoretically, it would be good to drop the campus as soon as possible. However, the wheat tile will only be incorporated into the city in 8 turns. That's way past the completion of the Holy Site. I will need to delay the campus. There is another issue, that there is no builder around that could chop the wheat as the current builder will use 5 charges to finish Hanging Gardens unless I use only 4 charges for it, the last charge to harvest wheat and then get the builder from pyramids to finish Hanging Gardens. I will need to work out a new schedule here, as I also need to delay Drama and Poetry until after 'fixing' the campus. Luckily I can research both mysticism and D&P up to 1 turn completion.

By the way, the south western slinger had to deal with another barbarian scout. I am beginning to suspect there is a land bridge in the center. This could spell trouble as Woden has started to accumulate GG points. I think, we need Rome to be strong soon to deter any other players from trying to get funny. It might be a good idea to get HBR and connect horses, too.

[Sullla]

OK, catching up with this thread. I was traveling for work today and I'll be in San Diego for the next few days:

Summary:
Option a: sugar connected T44, Hanging Gardens done T45
Option b: sugar connected T42, Hanging Gardens done T49

I lean toward option a honestly. Since this turn the builder can't move anyway, you still have the option to veto.

With those numbers in mind, I concur with Option A, i.e. our original plan. I thought we might be able to speed up the extra luxury resource connection at no other cost, but it looks like we're sacrificing too much to get a resource connected two turns faster. Definitely not worth it.

That city state quest from Lisbon was awesome.

Now, the issue at hand: Once the Holy Site in Quanzhou is done, theoretically, it would be good to drop the campus as soon as possible. However, the wheat tile will only be incorporated into the city in 8 turns. That's way past the completion of the Holy Site. I will need to delay the campus. There is another issue, that there is no builder around that could chop the wheat as the current builder will use 5 charges to finish Hanging Gardens unless I use only 4 charges for it, the last charge to harvest wheat and then get the builder from pyramids to finish Hanging Gardens. I will need to work out a new schedule here, as I also need to delay Drama and Poetry until after 'fixing' the campus. Luckily I can research both mysticism and D&P up to 1 turn completion.

Two quick thoughts here. One is that Hangzhou should grab two additional cultural tiles when it finishes a wonder - wouldn't completing Hanging Gardens grab that wheat tile plus another tile? That's the pattern we observed previously at Quangzhou. Second, we don't *HAVE* to harvest the wheat by any means. We can always put the Campus district over top of it since wheat is a bonus resource. We just lose the opportunity to harvest it for additional population. I'm not sure if it would be worth waiting to have a builder charge available for harvesting or not.

As far as a land bridge to other continents... well, we will find that out soon enough with our units if true. I'm not concerned at this point about an attack from another team, and especially not Woden/Chevalier, who are in the worst position by far. If they want to attack someone, it's going to be Russia/Germany or Kongo/Khmer, not Rome. We can always train warriors and upgrade them legions easily if need be. We should keep the thought in the back of our heads, but at this point I'm not worried.

Going to play my turn now. Back in a bit with the report.

[Singaboy]

@Duh, you are so right, Sulla. I forgot about the tile grab when a wonder is completed. Also, in my plans I assumed that Hangzhou would get the additional builder from pyramids. If that holds true, all the worries are unfounded. Once Hanging Gardens are done, I can harvest the wheat tile (since it gets incorporated), I can connect sugar and citrus too.

I think, it will all work out fine and we will be in a great position come T50/60 when we both have 4-5 cities. By the way, as we want religion to spread quickly, it might be a good idea for Quanzhou to finish the shrine so I can actually recruit missionaries.

[Sullla]

It's another even turn number: Turn 40.



First things first: it looks like the barbarian scout committed suicide against my slinger in the south. There was no message stating that my slinger was attacked, but it has less health and more experience points than it did last turn. Too bad the scout didn't survive with 1 HP left so that I could shoot it for another 4 XP; my slinger is currently at 11/15 XP and 35/100 health. It will be able to promote-heal after shooting Buenos Aires in a few turns.

The trader was also ready to establish a trade route in Roma this turn. I dearly would have liked to run a road over to China for mobility purposes, but ultimately the +1 food/production/gold from sending the route to Ostia was too good to pass up. My capital needs that food badly, and the extra point of food from hopping to Autocracy next turn is going to be a major plus as well. I should be able to run a future trade route to Singaboy at some point down the road - just not now.

I also went ahead and purchased a forested plains hill tile at Ostia this turn:



I hated to spend the 65 gold on that tile, the one between the wheat and rice resources. However, the city wasn't going to expand borders to this tile for quite some time, not until after the remaining resources were picked, and I wanted to work that tile immediately on this turn. With Archery and Political Philosophy both about to finish, now was the time to grab it before the cost scaled up any further. This will not interrupt the archer upgrades planned for next turn, and in fact makes them easier by giving me another tile within my borders.

So here's the overview at the end of the turn:



Ostia is working its three highest production tiles for 10 base/turn, dropping to 9.5 base production with the amenities penalty. Only for a few more turns but it's there unfortunately. The settler will likely take 10 turns to finish, keeping in mind that the cost is going to scale up when Roma finishes its own settler next turn. The capital is going to pop out a few builders next using Ilkum policy; I need to do a little planning on how to optimize the tile micro for those builders. I need a builder for Roma, a builder for the new city in the east, a mine on the iron hill tile, and ideally a forest chop knocking out a good portion of a district via Agoge production overflow. Sadly we'll have to purchase the iron tile as well, and since it's in the third ring it's going to cost about 100 gold. However, mining the iron is worth two boosts at once (Wheel and Iron Working) plus it gives Roma an awesome high production tile to work, so should be worth the expense. We are making a combined 25 gold/turn right now and that's increasingly steadily.

All four slingers will upgrade into archers next turn and then start positioning to attack. It will likely take about 3 turns total to get them where they need to be, and then we'll start attacking Buenos Aires. I'm cautiously optimistic that four archers will be able to make fairly short work of the city. I would just feel better if I could get the other warrior down here somehow - too bad it needs to guard the outgoing settler for safety.

No major score changes this turn. I want to point out that Japper (Kongo) still only has his capital city somehow 40 turns into the game. Not the fastest opening for their team.

[Singaboy]

Turn 40:

Writing is done and I can check what the cost of an non-discounted campus would be right now. Of course, with additional civics/technologies, the cost will up. Currently, I am looking at 107 hammers. With a 40% discount, it would be around 65 hammers. So, I think I can expect it to be around 70 hammers ultimately. In 6 turns, with Hanging Gardens done, I could harvest the wheat and then plant the campus. Of course, this also means to have a builder there by T46. It remains to be seen where the pyramid builder will pop up. Judging from the Stonehenge Great Prophet, it should be Hangzhou. If that is the case, the builder can start improving sugar, bananas and citrus.



At Quanzhou, the builder puts in another charge and the wonder is almost completed. With a production of 213 next turn, the overflow will be be around 40 hammers resulting in the Holy Site being at 46/88 hammers. Being able to improve the horses, production would be around 7/8 hammers, the district done in 6 turns after that on T47. This ties in nicely with harvesting the wheat and then planting the campus at Hangzhou.




In other news, the warrior in the north fortifies to fend off an incoming warrior. In the south, my slinger defeated a scout to earn a promotion. Next turn I will switch from mysticism to Drama and Poetry in order to get off Corvee once the Hanging Gardens are done. I will play around with Drama & Poetry as well as Theology to avoid finishing one of them before the campus has been locked at a discount.