[SPOILERS] Rusten prepares to face the music

[Rusten]

FWIW I think the 2nd variation is best. It's a compromise between working strong tiles and getting the 1st settler out early (the 2nd city is the one with the biggest gain usually taking into account maintenance and establishment of trade network).

If we decide to put our 2nd city elsewhere then Mecca can choose to grow from 3 to 5 in 5 turns after the first settler (keeping corn).
This results in size 5 Mecca and a T36 2nd settler (like in the size 5 example), except we had our first settler on T29 and not on T33 (improvement).

So to my mind double chop first settler on size 3 seems to be the baseline regardless of 2nd city location. It works out with both corn city and [other location] city. I prefer to grow Mecca and get mines after that, but you may disagree. We can have that debate when we get there and have more information.

[vandale]

Well, actually, it's good that you've been insistent on this issue.
I'm starting to see your point @ mines being on par with new claimed tiles & growing Mecca to 5.

Yes, I agree.
I'll add that there's tremendous "synergy" between delaying BW, working mines in a high prod capital and founding a religion.
IMP really helps offset the cost of going Meditation first.
If there's a start where you can afford to found Buddhism, it looks like this one.

[Rusten]

I'm almost a little sad you said that because I've got bad news:

21) plako - Justinian (Imp/Spi) of Inca

I already talked about how Inca was the civ I feared the most would be interested in a religion. It gets worse.

-a spiritual civ would love the early religion for civic swaps and +1 happy
-you just came to the same conclusion as me that IMP helps offset the negatives
-the player is Plako* who does not shy away from pursuing alternate paths if given the chance. Would certainly mix it up here.

*One of the few players on the list who played PB when I was active in 08 -> early 2010. Old-schooler. As a result I've researched him a little bit.

So that opens up a can of worms. Are we willing to flip for it? Do we go Poly instead? Do we hope that he goes Poly? Do we hope that he does not delay his worker for the 1T earlier meditation?

[vandale]

Do we EOT before he does ? Are players ordered at random or following that list ? Hmm...

Note that the mod doesn't give FIN bonus from working riverside. So, he likely doesn't have any more commerce than we do. /// Edit : Incans not FIN /// Funny that he's got the Myst + IMP combo, too.

Hindu is much worse than Buddh. Takes 3 more turns.

With 25 players, it makes sense that religions would be contested, and shinies in general.

Maybe he goes Oracle, not Buddhism. Gambits...

[Rusten]

The EOT order is randomized every turn. No way of knowing who'd get it if we tie.

5 mysticism civs in total other than us, but plako is by far the one most likely to go for a religion based on traits and starting techs.

-celts myst/hunting: 1) dtay - Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp) of Celtia
-inca myst/agri: 21) plako - Justinian (Imp/Spi) of Inca
-maya myst/mining: 6) Donovan Zoi - Pacal (Exp/Fin) of Maya
-aztec myst/hunting: 13) 2metraninja - Napoleon (Cha/Org) of the Aztecs
-HRE myst/hunting: 25) Aretas - Ragnar (Agg/Fin) of Holy Rome

Let me know if I missed any.

[vandale]

'Cause he's the only one with agriculture, got it.

Pacal of Maya is also an interesting combination of Leader/Civ.
Nappy of Aztecs, wow... that seems appealing. 2metraninja...

I can't open the sign-up thread, dunno why. I'll look later but I trust you know your myst/agri civs

[Rusten]

-The aggressive ones have a cheap barracks for border pops
-CHM has extra happiness already
-Maya has neither hunting nor agriculture (needs a food tech first)

And that only leaves plako, who also starts with agriculture like us.
Not saying it's impossible that they try it, but plako is by far the one most likely, IMHO.

[Rusten]

To make sure we are aware of our options I present a possible poly-path.
T33 1st settler, T35 2nd settler
2nd warrior after 2nd settler (possible problem*, but at worst we can delay settler 1T)

Screens and actions:

Farm corn+rice --> mine hill --> size 4 worker followed by size 4 settler --> both workers mine second hill together --> both workers move to forest to chop timed with BW completion.
2nd city can take corn from Mecca. The second settler is created with 1 overflow which means that the ivory can be worked instead of the corn.

This was the first sim I did, so maybe you can find something better. But I'd like to think that I'd choose a good path right away given the prior experience with meditation timings.

On the flipside we're no longer faced with the dilemma of having to delay our worker. Poly is researched on the same turn regardless according to my test.
It's 3T slower to religion, but that's with some overflow so I guess it's more like 2.5? It's only 34 extra beakers (which have a prereq bonus). Not that big of a deal honestly.

*In general we may need to add some warriors to all our builds after the 2nd settler or possibly even sooner. Depends on settling location/neighbours etc.

EDIT: size 4 settler --> worker results in a T29 first settler and is an interesting option, but it's completely locked into settling corn first due to less worker turns. The former could potentially settle elsewhere.

[Rusten]

I'm ready to commit to religion first.* I like growing to 4 and then getting either worker or settler depending. That's for both meditation (with delayed worker) and polytheism.

I'd argue that polytheism is more useful long term. There's synergy with CHM and the aesthetics path.

Replay this opening and tell me what you think:

Poly-mining-bw
Worker-warrior-warrior (part)-size 4 (exact food) worker-settler
2nd worker is made using flood plains over ivory for a few turns in order to speed up BW by 1 turn (no wait after mining hill).

Actions: farm-farm-mine-mine (both workers)-double chop

T33 first settler (one of the later ones), but overall development looks okay. Especially if 2nd city goes to corn.
T35 2nd settler. I quite like it.

I'd also be interested to hear what you think about size 4 settler-worker (everything else the same). Results in T29 settler but less flexible.

*Not only is it fun and opens up a variety of options I also think it's strong with our starting techs/civilization/PB settings.

EDIT: I'd also like to hear your thoughts on growing to 5 (completing warrior with a lot of overflow) and then going worker-settler. I think there might be a way of getting T34+T36 settlers there with precise micro (I'd need to replay to check). T35+36 is easy.

Edit 2: Sent you a sample file on CFC. File type not accepted on these forums and cba to change format.

[vandale]

I'm out of business until sunday, dear Rusten.

I'll try to catch up then.

I'm happy that you mention : "I'm ready to commit to religion first."
You know you want it ; heavy testing is sort of pointless without making the strategic decision first.
I think Missionaries are important if we found an early religion. Not to spread to our cities but to foreign lands.

It's a given to me that the religion happiness doesn't matter to us ;
Civics can have their use (especially Theocracy, which requires that awkward tech but OR as a standard civic is excellent) ;
Shrine has the most upside. Shrine needs missionaries. 1 per player, let them do the dirty work.


"I'd argue that polytheism is more useful long term. There's synergy with CHM and the aesthetics path."
Would you expand on that ? It's not obvious to me.
Meditation opens up the Philo bulb, which can screw... what bulbs ?
What's with CHA and Aesthetics ?