Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[Sullla]

Yeah, Japper and Cornflakes have been a bit slow lately to play their turns. I don't expect them to remain in the game too much longer either; they simply haven't put themselves into a position to win, and the other teams in this game are too good to let that opportunity go to waste. They'll likely see Turn 100 but it's doubtful they'll make it much past that unless I'm badly mistaken.

Thanks to everyone for brainstorming some ideas about the England/Nubia income that I observed this past turn. Hopefully this is nothing more than another weird interface issue with Civ6's notoriously bad presentation of information. Just so that you have another indication of what I mean, here's a picture of that last two turn summaries from my spreadsheet:



Almost everything is the same here. You can see our team spending gold on upgrades but not the corresponding power spike (which will take another turn or two to show up on the delayed military power ranking). The one glaring change is the income for England/Nubia; I don't know how anyone could go from 66 gold/turn up to 161 gold/turn like that. Let's pray that it's an interface bug of some kind. Also note that England/Nubia has pretty definitively pulled past Russia/Germany at this point, and they're likely to get further ahead if they're able to take land from Khmer. I've been underwhelmed by EmperorK and TheArchduke over the last two dozen or so turns. They have a ton of districts but they're barely outpacing Kongo/Khmer on science and culture.

Singaboy, we might want to use this pause to think about our city planning and big picture strategy going forward. I think I have a pretty good idea for what my cities will be doing in the next dozen or two turns, and you probably do as well for the Chinese cities. But it might be helpful for our coordination to talk those ideas out a bit further so we can line things up together. Do you have a particular district type after Holy Sites to emphasize? I would tentatively suggest Campuses (since science is always great) and Commercial districts since we have Lisbon in our backyard to take advantage of. We also might want to think about where to place Encampments along the German border for safety. I'm also concerned about being attacked along the western ocean sometime in the future; we might want some ships there sometime down the road. Just thinking out loud here.

[Singaboy]

Thanks Sulla for the nice overview. I am hoping to boost all categories with 2 more cities being online in 2/3 turns and two wonders finishing in 2/5 turns and another in around 10 turns. This would add 28 faith, 2 science and 5.5 culture a turn.

As for district planning, with the wonder building coming to an end soon, it's finally time to go after them in earnest. Let me pin down some plans:

Hangzhou: Holy Site in place, Campus about to be done in around 3 turns. CH has been placed and should be done with the wall chop. I am planning to put down a theatre district west of the campus as it would get +3 culture from 2 wonders and 2 districts.
Shangdu: CH in place, Holy Site to be produced with the aid of a wall chop.
Quanzhou: Holy Site in place, possible campus NW of the south western mountain
Shanghai: harbor placed, needs to be finished with wall chop, Holy Site E of city next to mountain, Campus could be built NE of that mountain too.
Beijing: entertainment district in place, harbor could be placed inside the lake (or CH NW of the city)
Kashgar: camp to be built possibly NW-W to defend versus the Ocean and units from south, harbor could be placed inside the lake
City 7 (SW of current settler location), possible camp W-W for strategic defenses
City 8 (SW of iron), possible camp SW of stone, next to camp from Kashgar

The problem is, how do I get back to district discounts, which would be very important now. Currently the formula is:
Districts finished: 4 (with 4 more placed)
Districts unlocked: 8

Hence, I would need to finish 4 districts to enjoy a discount. Finishing 4 districts should be possible within a reasonable time frame. It would be good to then drop a camp with a discount. The question is, do we have time to wait for this or should I start shoring up defenses for a potential attack around T105.
The good thing is, if I push faith, I can purchase land units and can focus production of cities on other stuff.

Sulla, any bright ideas about the district placements?

With regards to technology and civics, I think the path for civics is clear for now with China pushing the bottom part of the tree and Rome going for the top. Technologies get a little trickier. I am just short of finishing machinery and stirrups. Construction is no issue for both of us, Rome could go for Military Engineering (Eureka is done), China for castles (monarchy government is not far off). I know that Rome will prioritize Education and Mass Production for the Arsenal. The lower part of the tech tree is always more painful, hence it is good to know that Rome will build an armory. That will open up gunpowder. With gunpowder, China could go for metal casting and then get two bombards (can faith purchase two catapults and upgrade) to open siege tactics. We could debate whether it is worth to get a military engineer to build two forts in the southwest to open up ballistics, but we will need that technology.

Maybe we can have a screenshot showing who gets which technology and which civic with rough estimates of the finish dates.

[Singaboy]

Two images of the tech and civic tree with some indications who could do which tech and civic. Obviously Rome has far bigger output currently and will be able to do more of both.

[Sullla]

Thanks for that outline Singaboy. I'm looking forward to seeing the two new cities and the completion of those wonders as well. What's the third one, by the way - the Oracle? I know that the first two are Petra and Jebel Barkal. Let me hop into thoughts on the district planning:

* Hangzhou looks pretty set for the moment: Holy Site, Campus, Commercial, and then Theatre. That's a great collection of districts for a capital, and we definitely want at least one Theatre district to help us land some of the boosts associated with it later on the civics tree. China might be the logical candidate for the "build 7 different types of specialty district" boost that comes a bit later on the civics tree, one of the harder ones to get. Hangzhou will have four districts of its own, Beijing already has an Entertainment district, and Shanghai will supply the Harbor district. Then we just need at least one Encampment or Industrial district, and the new cities in the southwest will definitely want an Encampment or two. I think we'll have that covered then.

* Shangdu: Commercial district done, Holy Site next up. I think that's the way to go there.

* Quanzhou: Holy Site done, Campus suggested for next. The proposed location to the west of the Holy Site district is a pretty good one, since that flatground plains tile is basically useless otherwise. I wonder if there's a way to get a Campus district here next to two other districts and a mountain for another adjacency bonus; it might be possible with Shangahi so close. One other thing I'll suggest is building a Theatre district for the third district here. Quanzhou's many wonders make it an obvious choice for another Theatre. Perhaps the tile southwest of the salt resource in the third ring, a flatground grassland tile that will be next to both Petra and Jebel Barkal eventually? We can decide later since the city isn't even size 7 yet.

* Shangahai: Harbor already placed, Holy Site on the tile east of the city - yes to both. We can figure out the location of a potential Campus district down the road for the third district. One other possibility in the third ring would be the plains forest southeast of the incense, which would be next to the mountain and next to Quanzhou's Campus district for another adjancency bonus.

* Beijing: Entertainment district already placed for Colosseum. I wouldn't suggest a Harbor district here, personally; while they do reclaim an otherwise useless lake tile, a Harbor district isn't going to serve much purpose for Beijing since ships would just be trapped inside the little lake. With our control of Lisbon, a Commercial district would have more value in terms of gold than a Harbor district. I think either a Commercial district for some gold income or yet another Holy Site district for more faith income. This begs the question of just how much faith income we want to have; I was suggesting 5 Holy Site districts which would get China to about 150 faith/turn income with full buildings everywhere and Simultaneum policy running. Do we need more than that? How valuable is faith in a MP game with Theocracy running and Oracle-enhanced Great Person generation? We've never really tested this before as a community and I don't have an answer here. I'm curious what you think.

* Kashgar: Encampment district suggested NW-W for defense at the choke point, and I agree that seems like a good spot. Germany would have to break the Encampment before being able to attack over land from the west; it would be a strong defensive position. This is a city that likely wants multiple levels of walls eventually, not just the basic Ancient walls. I will again suggest a Commercial district over a Harbor if we want an economic district at size 4 though. A Harbor is just not that useful and the Commercial district is immediately worth +4 gold/turn, eventually likely rising to +8 gold/turn from Lisbon. Two east of Kashgar might be a good location.

* City #7: two tiles west of the city center does feel like a good spot for an Encampment. If not there, then three tiles west could also be a good spot, east of the salt resource. By the way, it would be great to get another city south of this; is there room for another city on that peninsula? I don't have any zoomed out images of that area in front of me right now. Could you get another city down there by founding on the current tile east of the bananas instead of southeast (?)

* City #8: yep, that's the perfect spot for an Encampment southwest of the stone. With walls and Encampments finished, this will be a very difficult area for anyone to break through. We'll bunker in here against Germany and expand via conquest through the weaker civs to the east. There will be room for both Roman and Chinese cities down in the lands currently controlled by Kongo and Khmer.

By the way, we might want to be careful with terminology. "Camp" as shorthand for Encampment sounds an awful lot like "Campus".

On district discounting, the main thing is that China needs to finish a bunch of the districts currently placed on the map to be in the range of getting a discount again. Then it's a matter of having one "top district" type, which will likely be Holy Sites for China, and making sure to have more of them than anything else. There wasn't much we could do here because our tech/civic research ran way out in front of our ability to construct districts, not helped by China having to sink so many builder charges into wonders. Now that we've unlocked all of the district types (aside from the Aerodromes), there will be plenty of opportunity to catch up on the district building.

As a last point, I agree with your thoughts on upcoming civic/tech research. The suggestion to have China faith-purchase two catapults for upgrading into bombards is brilliant. That's one of the tougher boosts to get because siege units pre-artillery are fairly useless in this game. If China can get the boosts for Castles and Siege Tactics, Rome should be able to pick up Education, Gunpowder, and Cartography. In the civics tree, Rome picks up Medieval Faires, Guilds, and Exploration which China researches Civil Service, Divine Right, and Reformed Church. Perhaps we can use patronage to get a third Great Person for the Enlightenment boost somehow; Rome is going to have two Great People there but not three. Still plenty of time to figure that one out.

[Singaboy]

Thanks for the input Sulla. I agree that commercial districts are much better than harbors there as we get the Lisbon bonus.

The third wonder by the way is The Oracle at Hangzhou. The current builder there is going to chop the rain forest this turn and will then walk to the hill east of the city to build it. I made up my mind that I will keep the builder at 1 charge and not mine the hill it is going to chop this turn. This will enable a quick chop with Limes/monarchy. I am trying to chop forests at Hangzou/Shangdu/Beijing and Shanghai with said bonus and hence, need a few builders. I decided to keep tow builders at 1 charge (those builders slated to build Jebel Barkal and The Oracle). Those builders can chop forests at Shanghai and Hangzhou later. An additional builder is being produced in Beijing once the granary is done. I would like to line up another builder for a quick serfdom -> 7 charge builder pair. Those builders could then chop at Beijing and Shangdu and then proceed to improve a lot of tiles (there is plenty of stuff that needs to be improved).

A sketch of potential districts. The question is whether I should lock some districts now to keep the costs down as I can't get discounts for them anyway. The Holy Site at Shanghai could get locked as it would never get a discount anyway. And yes, I would love to build as much faith as possible. Remember that every Holy Site will get us a shrine/temple and wat. That's +10 faith/2 science without the simultaneum policy card. I imagine that Hangzhou/Shangdu/Quanzhou/Shanghai/Beijing/Tianjin will have those. That's ultimately around 60 faith (120 with the right policy). Add to that 7 wonders (28 faith) and Jebel Barkal bonus (16 faith), and the values would get close to 170 faith a turn.

[Sullla]

That's a super helpful illustration Singaboy, thanks! My one comment would again be to suggest that Tianjan and Pagan think about Commercial districts instead of Harbors. I think it comes down the purpose behind them; if we're trying to chase after Great Admirals, then the Harbors are better. If we're interested in more gold income, the Commercial districts are better. I think it's probably a fool's errand to pursue any Great Admirals in this game given the ridiculous advantage that England has (the infamous half cost Harbors and double Great Admiral points), but it's a discussion worth having. Now for my turn - three whole days since the last one! Good thing we both take good notes.



This is a picture of the front lines where my units are moving into position for Turn 89. There is just enough time to get every unit where it needs to be for moving in on Turn 89 and attacking on Turn 90. Here's the spoilered image for where everything will be on Turn 89 again:

Mpinda grew to size 3 this turn; I'm hopeful that the city will still convert from the missionary charge that Singaboy will use later this turn. I think that it will but I guess that we'll see. There was one other thing to do here:



I rush-purchased the battering ram for 260 gold. This picture is out of sequence with the rest of the turn report, as it was the last thing that I remembered to do before passing on the turn. Whew! Almost made a potentially huge mistake there. Good thing I was writing down the gold that each team had in the bank for my notes, then suddenly realized that Rome shouldn't have 300+ gold sitting around. We will now have the battering ram ready to move next to Mpinda on Turn 90 in case walls would suddenly appear in there.

Also note that I have a galley moving through the Siena/Genova canal towards the eastern ocean. It's time to get some more info over there and have naval support for upcoming military operations. It won't arrive in time to attack Mpinda, but it will be there by the time we move on Kinchassa.



The other galley sailed past The Jungle Book as it moved to the north, still staying out of vision of Japper. I was able to get vision on the city center tile which is still devoid of units. In addition, Japper finished a Theatre district - a Theatre district! - this turn to the south of the city. Seriously Japper, what the heck man. I do not understand this guy at all. His military power went up to 205 when he upgraded a couple of warriors into Ngao Mbembas ten turns ago, and there's been absolutely no increase since then. Is Japper completely oblivious to the threat building on his border? He's never tried to scout our shared border at all, even as I planted a city four tiles away from his, and he doesn't appear to have any military units near Mpinda nor The Jungle Book.

Does this guy have any idea what he's doing? Well, his loss and our gain if he's not paying attention.



The most interesting domestic action this turn was chopping this forest for a chariot at Milano. That overflowed 105 production into the Campus district, unfortunately still leaving it about 75 production short of finishing the district. They've gotten to be quite expensive at this point when not discounted. I should be able to complete it in 3-4 more turns by chopping the jungle southwest of the city center into the district; Milano is also about to grow to size 5, and the jungle chop might be enough to take it to size 6. Then I need to do the Bath district after that, followed by more chariots until I obsolete Manuever policy. Time is running out to get more chariots done before I reach Monarchy government, and I want at least 6 chariots for upgrading into knights. This is the first chariot to be finished with many more to come.



Overview picture for Turn 87. Roma will finally get to do its deer harvest for the Encampment district next turn. As soon as that district finishes, I'll be able to place the Harbor district at Venezia at the discounted rate and then chop it to completion. I actually swapped off Construction tech this turn to Mathematics (leaving Construction at 1 turn to finish) so that I can make sure to have a tech finish the same turn that Roma completes its Encampment district in order to reset the counter. In the meantime, Venezia will build a quadrireme while Maritime Industries policy is running. Quadriremes are mediocre units, but they upgrade into frigates and frigates are awesome. Now is a good time to get at least one of them out on the map to support upcoming military actions along the coast. Plus I might be able to get the rare boost for Naval Tradition civic (kill a unit with a quadrireme), you never know.

Elsewhere, Firenze continues to produce trader #4 for the Medieval Faires boost. Ostia is building a library since I expect to need the specialist slot as the city continues to grow very quickly, and the new cities are working away on their Bath districts. The next civic swap will drop Maritime Industries for Limes and they'll begin on their city walls to set up future forest chops when in Monarchy government.



I snapped this picture of the China/Germany border. One idea that I had was the possibility of planting another city to the south of Pagan down the road at the yellow dot. That would be a solid, if not spectacular city, and would help defend the southern border with Germany. Obviously China isn't in an expansion phase right now, but we should think about it for the future.

Internationally, Germany has finished yet another Hansa. TheArchduke has 6 of them by my count, and he's getting 51 empire points from districts alone. Will we finally get to see the game where Germany puts that production to good use? Well, Germany has a lot of gold/turn income and presumably a lot of production, but TheArchduke's science (25.5 beakers) and culture (20.1) output are pretty mediocre right now. It seems obvious the first 90 or so turns were geared towards building Commercial districts and Hansas; I'm curious to see where TheArchduke goes from here. No other new cities or districts beyond Japper's baffling Theatre district.

That's all for now. Good luck Singaboy.

[Sullla]

Oh, and I forgot to post initially: England/Nubia no longer have a Declaration of Friendship with Kongo/Khmer. I've been checking that every few turns and they no longer have any agreements in place. I'm expecting an attack within the next few turns. Of course, I thought we were going to see that about half a dozen turns ago, so I could very well be wrong again.

[Singaboy]

Things are looking good. Three quick items:

1. The location of the city in the south might be blocked by Germany's most probable city which is where the archer currently stands (SW of my slinger).
2. Don't forget that I will need a galley covering my missionary to convert Jungle Book. It would be where your galley currently is on T89 to move next to Jungle Book on T90 and then convert twice T91/92.
3. Are you planning to switch to monarchy? I had assumed you would go for merchant republic but an earlier switch does make sense of course. I might research monarchy but not switch government depending on the wall chops. I might also want to delay divine right for a while to produce sufficient chariots.

[Modo]

So you have to research a tech / civic in order to reset the counter on the district discount formula...but in doing it you also increase the cost of everything that scales based on techs / civics discovered, including districts. It's still within the intended behavior but man the work you have to do with this game even after the first expansion.

Between Japper's upgrades, Cornflakes asking for gold and two teams threatening them I highly doubt they're not aware of the danger. I'm assuming Japper is basically checking out, no reason that I see for a Theater district to help with defenses in any way.

[Singaboy]

Turn 87:

Wonder building is weird and certainly buggy...later more about that

First thing I do is to take care of the capital. The walls are at a perfect 79/80 and production switched to the campus. The rain forest chop nets 36 food and 36 hammers. I need to fiddle around with tiles etc to get the clear picture of the outcome as the UI refuses to update the real situation. Anyway, after a while I get the correct outcome which is just what I wanted. The city will grow this turn and Civil Service will be done on T88. Just nice as mercenaries is then down to 1 turn completion.
The campus production is down to 2 turns, which it will complete before swapping to chariots. The good thing is, since CS only completes next turn, I get another turn of wall production for many cities including Shangdu, which finished its granary. I am trying to maximize hammers for a turn before borrowing the sugar from next turn onward to get Shangdu to grow faster.

With CS finishing next turn, I will exchange Limes for Maneuver to make use of it as long as it is still not obsolete. I will also swap out of serfdom and have the wild card available. I might even think of Corvee if the wonder behavior is so strange. I will decide this next turn.



Before putting attention to the wonders, one of the missionaries successfully converts Mpinda. 
This will let Sulla test Crusade. Let's hope it works as intended and those already strong legions get another +10 strength. As Rome will gain the GS in 3 turns, there might even be additional healing of 20 health available. I have a feeling, Japper won't be in the game that much longer. It would be Japper's third consecutive exit from a PBEM as the first player. This might only be averted by Khmer falling to Nubia/England even faster. Every turn without a war declaration is a good turn. Every turn without a wonder completion from others is even better



So what are the wonders doing. Well, I decide to charge Jebel Barkal first and almost fall off my chair. What on earth is going on. The charge only results in 66/400 hammers, when clearly it should be 76.5. Is thee something different for this wonder from the rest? I immediately charge Petra to see what is happening and it gets 76.5 hammers added. Is there an effect of a third production getting some negative multiplier (I have Petra, temple and Jebel Barkal running). At least Petra will finish as planned next turn. The question is whether I should enable Corvee to prevent spending additional production for the wonder as I have to do now. I want to complete the temple as soon as possible and this delays the completion. Sulla, what do you think? The initial plan I had was to enable Maritime Industries to start producing quadriremes in Shanghai.
Luckily next turn, with Petra done, production in the city will increases helping with the temple completion.



For the rest of the turn, the settlers move into position, the missionaries move and the archer in the southwest keeps on spying on Germany soil. In fact, there seems to be one awesome settling location, which is the coastal tile NE of the bananas. Most important next turn is that nobody finishes one of those wonders.