Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[Japper007]

The Settler was indeed deleted deliberately within your vision. Cornflakes thought it would be a nice troll to make it seem like your herding (we caught on to that pretty much instantly) was working, and I agreed.

Also it's Max Havelaar, not Havellar. I'd thought a fellow historian like you would at least know about the foremost work of 19th century Dutch literature Sulla  

GG on you guys anyway, you two were like a constant threatening Leviathan to our Northwest  with Woden the Behemoth storming down the other causeway.

[Alhambram]

Also it's Max Havelaar, not Havellar. I'd thought a fellow historian like you would at least know about the foremost work of 19th century Dutch literature Sulla  

I don't think that it is fair to criticize other of their lack of knowledge. Sulla did state in his website that he did specialize British History, so don't blame Sulla if he don't know details of Dutch history.

I do see some video's at youtube for example a American is asked to point out where for example Netherlands is at European map, majority got it wrong and as result a prejudge shows up that average American lacks knowledge of Europe's topography. The critical mistake that Europeans are making is that average American person isn't really interested what happens outside borders of USA. And the opposite is true as well.
For Europeans that is same regarding American history and topography. Japper, I challenge you to call out names and capitals of all 51 states of USA (no looking up at google, just call all of them it out your head) and historical important moments and persons for USA, high chance that you don't know all answers. 

Simply put there is difference between persons of various nations how they perceive history and knowledge.

[Modo]

Congrats on completing this first campaign, as befitting the Roman / Chinese pair the next one is already being set up.
Looking forward to some Armada on Armada action in the not so distant future.

[Sullla]

Everything still looks pretty good on your end, Singaboy. One of the things that I want to do later this week is think about future research paths for our two civs, particularly on the civics tree. Once we clear Mercantilism and TheEnlightenment, we can hopefully split up some of the civics research between our teams. China already having the boost for Civil Engineering is really nice - just be careful because finishing that civic obsoletes Limes as a policy, and that can be a bad thing.

On amenities, I don't think that either of us has spare copies at the moment to trade. I'll have a second copy of truffles soon as mentioned before, and eventually another source of cocoa. Unfortunately, China isn't going to be able to maintain Ecstatic happiness in its cities indefinitely, largely because population growth has created too many people, and that's not a bad thing! I'm impressed that we've been able to keep so many cities at the Ecstatic level for this long.

The Seoul operation looks like it went down perfectly, and picking up the Square Rigging boost in the process (not even needing to get it from Rome) was a nice touch. I appreciate sending that city over to Rome, it's going to help out the beaker rate a good bit. It makes more sense to assign cities with a Campus district over to Rome, since Rome taking point position on research lets China get the 60% boosts and keep pace with less overall science. If we capture cities from Germany, I think we'll want to give most of them to China since captured cities will let us faith-purchase reinforcements near the front lines. We're pretty even on cities right now, with 12 cities for Rome and 11 cities for China.

That is good-natured grumbling in those posts, right? You're not really angry that those truffles are still a couple of turns away, I'm hoping.

England hopping up to 7 envoys in Geneva isn't too bad for us. England's science is nowhere near the leaders, and I think Chevalier was right around 60 beakers/turn when I last played my turn. His science rate will go up slightly from hitting the 6 envoy bonus and then we can tack 15% onto that for the peace bonus, but it's still not going to be that threatening. The main thing is making sure that TheArchduke and Woden don't hold the suzerain bonus for Geneva. I don't plan on investing any more envoys there myself, I'd rather go for the 6 envoy bonus in Lisbon next.

I totally agree that we should look to invest faith into more horseman purchases for China to see use on the Germany border. If there's time, I would also suggest bringing back a good chunk of the Chinese units currently in Kongo lands for use in a prospective war. I think our strategy would be to hold the land frontier along the current border while attacking with Roman land units / ships along Germany's eastern coast. Obviously none of that works unless we have a very strong force to protect China's current holdings. We will also need to think about using an apostle for an inquisition to prevent Defender of the Faith abuse from being used against us; I want to run some tests along those lines in a Single Player game to experiment with the mechanics. Can you use an inquisitor to remove religion from an enemy city? If so, we'll want to do that as part of our attack. Similarly, we know that TheArchduke's units don't benefit from Defender of the Faith, only EmperorK's Russian units. But does EmperorK get the benefit within the borders of his Germany ally, or only within his own borders? That could be extremely important to know.

I also agree that we should earmark most of our gold for Chinese unit upgrades in this next round of conflicts. From Rome's point of view, the only upgrades that I need in the upcoming turns will be quadrireme into frigate upgrades. Now those aren't cheap at roughly 125 gold apiece, but if I can get my finances straightened out in the way that I want, I can hopefully handle a good number of them on my own. I don't want to ask for too much gold, but I will likely need at least a little bit before we fight our next war. We want most of our money going towards China in this round of upgrades though.

Other commenters:

Athmos: That's a really creative idea, but we probably don't need to get rid of Nan Madol badly enough to justify throwing away that many envoys. You lose all envoys with a city state when you declare war on them (only when attacking directly, not when pulled into a war with a city state by attacking another civ) and we'd have to invest 6 envoys into Nan Madol to claim the suzerainship. For that matter, the urgency of needing to deal with Nan Madol has also diminished a lot. England has stalled out around 60-65 culture/turn for a long time now. By contrast, Germany and Russia are both over 70 culture/turn now (Germany via a gazillion districts and Russia via Great Works). Rome is making over 70 culture/turn as well, and China actually pulls in more culture than England when running Meritocracy. England just isn't too scary anymore on the cultural front.

Japper: Well, I hope you had some fun luring us around with that settler a little while back. As for Max Havelaar, I have to plead ignorance there. My field of study was British history, not Dutch literature, and there's only so much that any one person can know. I could tell you a whole lot about the Dutch East India Company (the VOC) and what they were up to in the 17th and 18th centuries, for what little that's worth. Thanks again for taking part in this game and playing turns so promptly for the last few months.

[Singaboy]

Just two things here to add before you play your turn.

- Seoul has an extra spices, so you should have that amenity to trade. Easy to check anyway on your turn.
- All the grumbling is just poking fun at you. I think it is clear what objectives we have in this game and without all the gold trading etc, we wouldn't be where we are. This is not a competition within the team...so no worries

[Japper007]

Also it's Max Havelaar, not Havellar. I'd thought a fellow historian like you would at least know about the foremost work of 19th century Dutch literature Sulla  

I don't think that it is fair to criticize other of their lack of knowledge. Sulla did state in his website that he did specialize British History, so don't blame Sulla if he don't know details of Dutch history.

I do see some video's at youtube for example a American is asked to point out where for example Netherlands is at European map, majority got it wrong and as result a prejudge shows up that average American lacks knowledge of Europe's topography. The critical mistake that Europeans are making is that average American person isn't really interested what happens outside borders of USA. And the opposite is true as well.
For Europeans that is same regarding American history and topography. Japper, I challenge you to call out names and capitals of all 51 states of USA (no looking up at google, just call all of them it out your head) and historical important moments and persons for USA, high chance that you don't know all answers. 

Simply put there is difference between persons of various nations how they perceive history and knowledge.

Japper: Well, I hope you had some fun luring us around with that settler a little while back. As for Max Havelaar, I have to plead ignorance there. My field of study was British history, not Dutch literature, and there's only so much that any one person can know. I could tell you a whole lot about the Dutch East India Company (the VOC) and what they were up to in the 17th and 18th centuries, for what little that's worth. Thanks again for taking part in this game and playing turns so promptly for the last few months.

I was just teasing, no actual criticism meant!

I do actually know a fair bit about American history and geography Alhambram, though not by choice. Our main handbook for Early Modern and Modern history was "A History of Western Society" by the notoriously America/Anglo-Saxon centric McKay. God did we all hate that damn book!

[Sullla]

The dust from the last round of warfare is finally settling. The even number of Turn 120 is a good opportunity to step back and assess the larger situation.



I had a ton of messages in my Civ6 email inbox at the start of this turn. Starting from the bottom and working up, there were two messages for eliminations: Cornflakes and Seoul. Yes, city states count the same as civs in this regard, often throwing people off in the early stages of a Single Player game when a city state gets conquered in the fog. Above that was Chevalier Mal Fet accepting my message - whatever that means - and Singaboy proposing a deal to trade the city of Seoul. Then we had a peace treaty signed between Geneva and Seoul, Chevalier claiming suzerainship of Geneva, some housing notifications and a new promotion on a musket. Let's skip to the main proposed deal:



Thank you to Singaboy for trading the captured city state over to Rome, very much appreciated indeed. The new city increased Rome's science by about 10 beakers/turn as well as opening up a new trade route. Oddly, all of Singaboy's units were teleported outside of the city's borders when the transfer happened despite our alliance. I wonder why that happened? It doesn't really matter, just one of those quirks of the game engine.



I'm shifting my navy over into the southern ocean under the presumption that our next war is going to take place against Germany. One of my quadriremes found this German ship poking around, so be aware that TheArchduke does have one ship down here in the south. I'm going to stage my quadriremes up by Venezia where they will hopefully be a bit more out of the way. There's not much we can do if TheArchduke scouts properly though, we can't exactly stop his ships from sailing around in the water. (And yes, this is another sign that he has Cartography tech, which we already knew thanks to his galley into caravel upgrades.)



Overview of the situation in the former Kongo domains. I'm going to keep a handful of units over here while shifting the bulk of the army off to the west for potential use against Germany. Again, if we can't get England/Nubia to renew their Declaration of Friendship in 10 or so turns, then I'll turn my army around and head back to this area for safety, to be ready when it wears off. It will take about 15 turns to reach Germany, and that's about how much time we have until the DoF wears off with Germany/Russia. The current Roman land units won't be getting upgraded, I'll be trying to save my funds for quadrireme into frigate upgrades, with the naval units having the goal of controlling the seas and providing ranged support for landing operations. We don't have to take every German city, just enough to cripple TheArchduke and stop his teching. Russia's research capacity is pretty terrible on its own.

Let's take a look at the recent conquests added to the empire.



Seoul is a really nice city. Two districts, with the Campus and the Harbor placed next to each other for an additional adjacency bonus, and a granary, monument, library, and lighthouse intact. Every tile here came improved and with some sweet yields; I tossed down a Bath district on the tile southwest of the city on the only unimproved tile. With no offense to Japper, this city state comes better developed than the Kongo capital. I'm going to repair the monument first, then the granary, then we'll decide on whether to go for a builder or more ships after that. I'm looking forward to growing this city back up to size 6 or 7, at which time it will be up to about 20 base production/turn. This is already an excellent city and only going to become better with time.



Napoli, the former Heart of Darkness, has a finished Campus district and a lot of potential for further development. I repaired the granary first and then decided to start on a builder over repairing the watermill. This city will get exactly +2 food and +1 production for the watermill; is that worth delaying the builder to get that repaired sooner? I'm not sure. The city really does need a builder more than anything else, to improve the cocoa resource, mine the plains hill, and chop some of the jungle tiles. I wanted this city to get an early start on a builder, since it will take longer to get one out than my core cities in the Roman heartland, and I can syncronize them all together with a short period of Serfdom in about 12 or so turns. It's nice having this city out of occupation, even if it's a bit low on production right now.



Kinchassa is fairly useless at the moment, but oh my goodness, the potential this city has for the future. There are two stones, a copper resource, and double forests in the first ring, then three more forests in the second ring. Grassland hill tiles galore everywhere for production too; I can harvest the rice tile and chop jungle tiles for food, then mine everything else for production. This city needs about 10 builder charges in total, but it's going to be really nice once everything is set up properly. I tossed down a Harbor on the tile west of the city this turn; a proper stone harvest + Limes city walls overflow should be enough to complete that district immediately. Then I can chop the tile southwest of the city center for a Campus district, with the two districts providing each other an adjacency bonus. This is going to be a fun city to mess around with.



At Firenze, I chopped this forest with Maritime Industries in place resulted in a little less than 200 production of overflow. I decided to use that for a trader this turn, and since traders cost 95 production right now, there will hopefully be enough overflow to get another 1 turn trader next turn. I would like to send one of those traders to Seoul and the other to Kinchassa, both of them to build roads back to the rest of my territory. I plan to send both of them to Lisbon for the gold/turn bonus; that should be worth about 5 or 6 gold/turn as a base benefit, and Rome's unique ability grants another +1 gold for every trading route passed on the way. Sent from Seoul and Kinchassa, those routes should pass through several trading posts (in other Roman cities) along the way. So maybe 8 or even 9 gold/turn from the base trade route, and then Triangular Trade arrives in three more turns to add +32 gold/turn from having eight trade routes in operation. If this works as I'm hoping, I legitimately can be up near 100 gold/turn income in just a few more turns.



And I did the same move here at Siena as well, chopping this forest with quadrireme + Maritime Industries overflow into a Commercial district. It's listed as taking 6 more turns, but I think I can cut that down to 4 more turns once the grassland hill underneath the forest gets mined. So in addition to that trade route income, two more Commercial districts - each worth 8 gold/turn income - should also be finishing in the next few turns. Also worth noting: those are THE TRUFFLES about to be connected for China. Just a few more turns to mine the current hill and then move to create a camp.



The overview for northern Rome. Two settlers are nearing completion now and two universities following on their heels for the Printing boost. Venezia will go back to training quadriremes as soon as the university is done. Roma will go back and finish its district project once the university finishes; since that will take 2 additional turns, I'm targeting Turn 126 for the double district project completion and hopefully snagging the next Great Scientist. That would be excellent timing to boost The Enlightenment to completion. I have 8 total quadriremes on the seas right now and I see no reason to stop now. I'm going to keep building them right up until I need to upgrade into frigates for combat. Notably, anyone who wants to reach Industrialization for factories and the mining boost has to go through Square Rigging tech and obsolete quadriremes. There's only a limited time remaining to build cheap quadriremes and I'm trying to leverage that to maximum effect. (This is one of the huge advantages to being ahead in tech/civics research. You get more time to build older units by avoiding the techs/civics that obsolete units, and then you can force everyone else to follow you, because if they don't then your more advanced units will crush them. Once I show up with frigates, TheArchduke will have to get frigates of his own even if he doesn't want to. Otherwise he just loses the game.)

On that note... did I mention that Rome is up to 135 beakers/turn in research? Did I? It's pretty sweet.



Singaboy, I'm gifting you the extra spices from Seoul. This will let you trade your spices to Woden or Chevalier or someone else for an extra luxury resource. If you have a choice, Chevalier is probably the better one to pick because his research output is lower than Woden. It doesn't matter too much though. And yes, the truffles are on their way.



Finally, here's the big overview comparison from my spreadsheet. We look to be in really good shape right now in virtually every category. We have the most cities, the most population (by far), the most techs discovered and a big lead in the beaker/turn rate, the most civics discovered, the most faith/turn income, and the largest military force. China is actually third in science right now, higher than Nubia even with Woden's captured cities coming out of occupation. I'm almost concerned that our position is a little *TOO* strong here, and the other two teams will be looking to gang up against us. Well, our path forward looks to be getting England/Nubia to stay at peace for long enough that we can deal with Russia/Germany, then we can turn and face them. I doubt we'll get the 2 vs 1 scenario that we hoped for against Russia/Germany, but we'll see.

Overall, definitely looking really good. I have some more thinking to do about our future tech and civic path, but that might have to wait until I have more time for writing over the weekend. Good luck on your turn Singaboy.

[Singaboy]

Turn 120:

Nice developments in Roman land, despite the fact that we lost out on the Arsenal, things don't look too bad. If we can get a proper navy running and surprise Germany with frigates, we can gain the upper hand here.
The final two galleys have been completed on the west coast, we have 4 galleys there and 1 quadrireme at the moment, an additional galley near Balkh. Quanzhou finished its library boosting science to 82.1.

Once mercantilism is done, we can swap to meritocracy for an additional 18 culture if all three districts we have lined up are done. The builders are on their way to chop and mine. I decide to send Beijing's builder to help with Pagan and Balkh, rather than sending it south. It is faster to produce a builder there by ourselves. At he land connector west of Balkh, the unit shuffling continues. I will land the horseman next turn and then attempt to move it onto the dyes and from there hopefully pass the crossbow to stop any settler advancing. let's play this game a little longer. I am thinking that we will hit Germany hard right there in 15 turns anyway.



Now for the amenity trade. I rejected Rome's offer for the simple reason that I can't trade with England or Nubia anything useful. England already receives spices for silk. England would have another amenity on offer, but we got nothing for him. Nubia on the otehr hand has only silk to offer, we don't need that.

Tianjin's borders have finally expanded and I lock the encampment there. At a discount, the district costs 167 hammers and will be easily gained via the quadrireme/stone harvest later on. For that purpose I switched production to a quadrireme instead of the library.

Next is the medieval wall chop resulting in 200 hammers for the campus. People might question the rationale of building medieval walls. You got to consider the fact that the walls cost only 112.5 hammers with Limes. The chop gives me then an overflow of around 210 hammers. If I had chosen to build the campus by itself aided by a chop, I would have to build it for 260 hammers with 106 hammers coming from a chop. Hence I got the walls for free while hammer cost is more or less the same. I won't repeat the same anywhere else though.

I am still trying to get the wall chops done in Shanghai and even Quanzhou as well as Balkh and Acre before Limes becomes obsolete. Acre has started a builder and stopped the walls.

In the east, it is time to send troops in all sorts of directions. Three archers (soon crossbows) will stay in the east to protect Rome with the Crusader bonus. I will leave one musket, and one bombard there too. The remaining troops are either embarking westwards with three units going after the barbarians to gain experience with 1 promotion each and to smoke out the camp for more gold. The crouching tiger will move west too. I drafted a new horseman at Kashgar too. I can slowly start to add units there.

Finally, I am sending a 5th trade route on the way to Nan Madol to fulfill the quest for a second envoy there. The result is a slight increase in culture. I have in fact been keeping track of my own critical values of science and culture every 5 turns. This is the overview of the past turns:

        Research culture
T120    82.1     59.7
T115    69.7     50.7
T110    58.2     57.5
T105    49.3     51.1
T100    45.6     48.5

You can see that research has been increasing steadily from 45 to 82 now. Culture has fared worse due to the fact that I swapped out of meritocracy. Despite that, T120 has surpassed T110 which still was using meritocracy. As mentioned with that policy card, culture would be at around 80 per turn, almost on par with research.

[Sullla]

Looking good Singaboy. I know that I keep saying that, but it really is true. China is stronger than almost every other civ in the game: more beakers/turn, more culture/turn (with Meritocracy), more faith income, and more gold income. Only Rome and Germany have higher science, and in every other category China is superior. I tend to blab more about economic stuff than Singaboy does, but he's developed an extremely powerful civ by making use of the super-powerful Chinese builders and all those wonders. China is a fantastic choice for these MP contests, with the one caveat that China needs to stay out of an early war so that production can be spent on wonders instead. But if you can get Stonehenge for a religion, Pyramids for the insane builders, and Colosseum for mucho happiness and culture, China starts to become one terrifying entity. Singaboy has been playing his hand extremely well.

We haven't even been touting the fact that Rome is currently #1 in power and China is #2 in power. Russia/Germany have the economy but not the military; England/Nubia have the military but not the economy. We have both. Anyway, some other thoughts on this turn:

* Cartography finishing for China will be nice to have, we should be able to scout out more of German and Russia cities that are currently blocked by ocean tiles. I also have a Roman caravel slowly making its way around the northern edge of the English continent to reveal more territory.

* As far as the little isthmus goes, I don't think it's the end of the world if Germany builds a city there... since that will open up an opportunity for Rome to capture it and then sail ships through to the western ocean. TheArchduke and EmperorK still haven't started a military buildup yet, and they haven't been saving up their money either. They need to be doing both, right now, if they want to stop us. I'm confident that I can wrestle control of the seas from Germany with the navy that I'm assembling right now. I think it's a good idea to keep pestering TheArchduke with units to annoy him, but it's also not too bad if he does found a city in that spot. If he doesn't, we may need to use a settler of our own in that spot to get Roman ships from the southern ocean to the western one.

* No problem on the amenities trade, I'll be happy to offer the excess spices to Chevalier and see what I can get for them.

* The fact that Chinese culture will rise up to about 80/turn with Meritocracy is highly relevant. I think that we can split up our path through the civics tree and have the strong culture of both civs work together to power through the next era. It's also relevant that we're entering a period on the civics tree where most of the players in this game don't have a lot of familiarity. I think that I'm one of the few people in our MP community who has played out a bunch of games to the end of the tech/civic trees. So let me give you some thoughts about what we want to be targeting and what we probably shouldn't care about. (I took a screenshot of Rome's upcoming civics tree yesterday to illustrate this and then forgot to upload it, d'oh.)

We're working on Mercantilism and then The Enlightenment right now. Those are both critical civics with extremely powerful policies (Logistics, Triangular Trade, Rationalism), and we'll definitely want to knock out the two of them before anything else. After that, the following civics become a lot less useful. A quick tally:

- Civil Engineering has Public Works policy, which combines together Ilkum's +30% production on builders with Serfdom's +2 builder charges. However, it obsoletes Limes as a policy and that's a real bummer. We will want China to research this because Singaboy already has the boost. When to finish it (and obsolete Limes) will be a tough question.

- Nationalism is supposed to be a crucial civic, unlocking corps and fleets. However, it's currently bugged and corps/fleets cannot be created, which is a huge bummer. I tested this in a Single Player game last night just to verify. (Interestingly, you cannot create corps/fleets with Nationalism civic at the moment, but I *WAS* able to load an old savegame file where I had corps on the map and then create an army by merging in a third unit, still without having Mobilization civic. In other words, you can't create corps/fleets at the moment, but if you could get them in some way, you can turn them into armies/armadas. This is really bugged right now.) As a result, Nationalism is almost useless at the moment. I think this would be a great civic for China to target in research, since we are unlikely to be able to land the boost. No one ever seems to be able to get those casus bellis to work. Be aware as well that this obsoletes the Medieval/Renaissance +50% production card for melee and ranged units (Feudal Contract)

- Colonialism: nothing useful here. Rome can research this civic since I'll be delivering the boost (research Astronomy tech). This is a mandatory civic; it's not skippable like a lot of them are in this era.

- Natural History: there's not too much at this civic either, and it has the annoying aspect of revealing those ruins that cannot be cleared from the map without building an insanely expensive archaeologist unit. I should be able to get the boost for this civic by building an archaeology museum at Savoia.

- Urbanization: also not particularly useful, we won't be building any Neighborhood districts. Is there any chance that China can get Hangzhou to size 15 with resource harvesting and jungle chops? I think that's the only way we will have a chance to land this boost for this civic. If not, one of us can power through the civic with natural cultural output. Obviously it would be better if we could somehow get the Chinese capital to size 15.

- Opera and Ballet and Scorched Earth: both optional, both not worth research. For the lurkers, if you see other teams researching these civics, it's a sign that they don't know the Industrial era civics tree very well. They are mostly worth researching for the extra envoys, and I don't think that's needed for us. Once I get 2 more envoys in Lisbon for the 6 envoy bonus, Rome is basically set for the rest of the game.

So what do we actually want on the civics tree? We're going to be driving towards this civic:

- Mobilization: allows the creation of armies/armada, and in this broken patch version, also allows the creation of corps/fleets. Corps and fleets are great because they allow the player to overcome one of the major limits of the One Unit Per Tile system: there are only so many tiles on the map that units can fit into. I would much rather have 5 frigate fleets and 5 normal frigates as compared to 15 normal frigates, simply because I can't get 15 frigates to all fire on the same target at once. There just isn't enough space. And corps/fleets also save a huge amount of money on maintenance costs because they only count as one unit instead of two units. And remember, the +10 strength that corps/fleets get cause them to deal 50% more damage and take 50% less damage in return, so there's no real loss in military effectiveness. Corps/fleets are one of the best ways to leverage a huge military advantage over other players. If we can get here ahead of the other players, we'll have a very big advantage.

As if that wasn't enough, Mobilization also replaces the indispensible Conscription policy with Levee en Masse, which saves 2 gold on all unit costs - double the benefit. Mobilization is therefore both an excellent military civic and an outstanding economic one as well. We will want to push through the five prerequisite Industrial era civics to reach Mobilization as quickly as possible. Unfortunately the cost will be ungodly expensive because the boost is to build 3 corps, and that's currently impossible because corps can't be formed at the moment. Still, that's where we want to be heading in time.

I'll see if I can edit an image into this post later today so that it makes more sense, and then perhaps we can take a look at the tech tree and what's coming up as well to plan out our strategy. There are some key techs coming up that are surprisingly beeline-able, especially if we land Darwin the Great Scientist as we're hoping.

[Singaboy]

Great post again. I was thinking about how to get to nationalism. I did not know it is bugged. Good to know then.

I think, we should also think about the timeline for cavalry and field cannons. Maybe, I can attempt to create one soon. Rome is the obvious choice for fast research and currently trying to get to battleships as fast as possible. A combination with strong land units would be ideal. It would be great to test all that out