[SPOILERS] Charriu and Zalson are fighting the honorable post count war!

[Zalson]

Benefit of Mehmed is just expansive bonus. That saves a bunch of extra turns: Settler earlier, workers earlier, etc.

Compared with plan A, it gets us a settler on T30 and a lot more into the third worker around that time. I think it gets a lot less commerce though.

[Charriu]

So here is my breakdown:

Tokugawa
Pro:
Free City Garrison 1, Drill 1 promo for archery units: Very useful considering all the other players. Has great synergy with our UU.
Free City Garrison 1, Drill 1 promo for gunpowder units: Still useful and combines very well with the similar bonus from Agg. But a bit late
+100 production of Granary: Main feature of this trait. Will help us grow our cities. You all already pointed out that granaries are one of the most important buildings in the beginning.
+100 production of Walls: Nice should we be attacked. But who wants to play on defense all the time.

Agg:
Free C1 promo for melee units: Seeing as we play against Mongols and Persia, we will need spearman. Against Rome we will also need axemen, both units profit from this trait.
Free C1 promo for gunpowder units: See similar bonus in Pro.
-25% city maintenance: Helps our economy from the get go and does not require any building to be build.
+100% production of Barracks: With this we won't need monuments for culture.
+100% production of Stable: Nice, but I don't see me rushing with any horse units as of now. But still useful when the time comes.
+100% production of Drydock: Comes to late.


Mehmed:
Exp:
+2 health per city: We already have 3 different health bonus and we are on monarch. I don't think this will help us that much.
+35% production of Worker: Main feature here. We have some solid plans for this and it will speed up the beginning considerably
+35% production of Work Boat: We start on the cost and as you pointed out with pigs we can chop those out in 1 turn. Should there be more water than this will very helpful.
+100% production of Market: Best of the four building bonus. 
+100% production of Aqueduct: The +2 health bonus. I don't think we will need those early and when we will need them then our cities will be developed enough to build this fast.
+100% production of Grocer: Same as with the Aqueduct but better, because of the gold.
+100% production of Harbor: Should this be a water map, nice otherwise, meh.

Org:
-50% Civic Upkeep: Gets the biggest impact from the mid game.
+100% Lighthouse: Should this be a water map, nice otherwise, meh.
+100% Factory: To late.
+100% Courthouse: Very nice, but compared to the bonus from Agg it may be a bit weaker, because we need to tech to courthouse first and then need to build it in every city.


So all in all I'm still in favor of Tokugawa.

[Zalson]

Fine by me! I only said EXP because it gets us started a bit faster -- but it's your game!

[Charriu]

Fine by me! I only said EXP because it gets us started a bit faster -- but it's your game!

Sorry, if I made you uncomfortable. Your point was absolutely valid, I just felt I needed the safety from Pro more after my last game.

[Zalson]

Fine by me! I only said EXP because it gets us started a bit faster -- but it's your game!

Sorry, if I made you uncomfortable. Your point was absolutely valid, I just felt I needed the safety from Pro more after my last game.

Not at all. I'm not feeling particularly sold one way or another; I see my role as forcing you to justify your choices so that you make better ones. If, in this case, there isn't a lot downside either way, going with what you want sounds good to me.

Aggressive will also nicely protect us from the infrastructure trap; we will have a bonus on granaries, which we will want. Not sure how we will pop borders but it'll be nearly a single chop to pop borders, too.

I don't know if we need to go fishing > pottery then... i think we make that call when we review the terrain. if there's lots of land food and happy, then I think we maybe go pottery first and wait until we have a cap that needs fishing... but we do want fishing earlyish.

The other question is when do we want archers? We want them fairly early; they're really useful.

We'll have to see the map first, of course.

[Charriu]

Not at all. I'm not feeling particularly sold one way or another; I see my role as forcing you to justify your choices so that you make better ones. If, in this case, there isn't a lot downside either way, going with what you want sounds good to me.

Thanks, that's what I need.  

I don't know if we need to go fishing > pottery then... i think we make that call when we review the terrain. if there's lots of land food and happy, then I think we maybe go pottery first and wait until we have a cap that needs fishing... but we do want fishing earlyish.

The other question is when do we want archers? We want them fairly early; they're really useful.

We'll have to see the map first, of course.

Agree. I think the best moment to decide this is when BW finishs in plan A. And yes I do want archers early. This leads nicely into my next topic short, mid and late term goals:

Short term: Explore the area around the capital first, looking for good city spots. Next who and where are my immediate enemies.
Mid term: Try to tech for Machinery and maybe attack somebody with Chu Ko Nus. This is just a thought right now and I will have to think this through. I also will do some test games, so that I know how best to pull this off.
Late term: After a successful attack with Chu Ko Nus tech until gunpowder and attack again.

As of now I'm not total committed to these goals except for the short term goal. I will do some test first, but just wanted to let you know what's going through my head right now.

So with this in mind my current tech plan would be:

1. Hunting
   
2. BW
   
3. Wheel
   
4. (Fishing)
   
5. Pottery/Archery
   
6. Metal Casting (Build forge and work on Great Engineer)
   
7. Iron Working (Iron needed for Chu Ko Nus)
   
8. Masonary (So that Great Engineer can bulb Machinery
   
9. Machinery (via Great Engineer)
   

Like I said I'm not totally bought into this idea, just want to explore the possibility. This plan somewhat hampers my economic development and is a bit risky. I would only try this if an enemy is close by and propabely not against Rome or Persia.

[Charriu]

So the snake pick is over and we know what the others have picked. This calls for a classic moment in every spoiler thread; Evaluationg the other players. Notice I only evaluated the players themselves and not their dedlurkers.

1. Coeurva (Rome, Agg/Exp): Played a good and solid game in PB37. Has done some mistakes, but survived until the end and had a good standing. They reported constantly, but could use a bit more screenshots in the future. The civ/leader combo is very strong. The Praetorians together with Agg will be very dangerous with their 7.7 strength (By the way do they still lose the city attack bonus from normal BTS? I have to check this).  Exp should give a quicker start and has some synergy with the UB, which is nice, but does not make the UB any better. Should Coeurva be our neighbor then it will be hard. Even when our archers are in a city on a hill they only achieve 6 strength and our axemen in the open field 7.5. This will be hard as Couerva will use this force for sure. I see Couerva as the top player in this game and the post count war. 
   
2. Superdeath (Zulu, Agg/Cha): Currently is playing in PB39 and PB38, so I put this in spoilers.
   Superdeath had a similar experience to me in PB38, in that they did not survive till the end. After all it was Superdeath's first game on this site. But nonetheless the defensive work shown in PB38 was remarkable. PB39 was a lot better. Currently has a solid standing, but is falling behind on military to his neighbors. One thing I want to point out again is that Superdeath did not want a watermap in PB38. In PB39 their island cities were defended poorly. So there might be a nice chance for a amphibious attack.
   Zulu with Agg is a classic. I expect a fast expansion and maybe some harrasment with Impis. I'm not especially afraid of the Impis because of our Pro/archers. But they could buy Superdeath enough time for expansion. Cha will help in leveraging that bonus from barracks. I put Superdeath in second place and expect great things in this game.
   
3. Shallow (Persia, Agg/Imp): A long time civ player, but never played any game here at RB. Has nice a writeup in the SG section, really like their writing style. Persia together with Agg/Imp is a somewhat mix between Superdeath and Couerva. The Immortal will have 6.4 vs my archers on a hill city with 5.1. This means spearman are absolutely essential against the immortals. Just like Superdeath, Shallow will be able to back this up with a rapid expansion thanks to Agg/Imp. The UB is neglectable as was the case in Couerva's civ/combo. I rated Shallow third, because he did not play MP before.
   
4. Magic (Inca, Pro/Exp): Magic joined this PB more or less before it closed. Recently joined RB, so I know nothing about Magic. The civ/combo is the first more peaceful combo, but not less in power. I'm not afraid of his UU as it only achieves 4 vs my archers. The UB together with Pro is what bothers me more. In addition Exp gives him a great start. If Magic is able to start the snowball with this, they can achieve great things, but then it's still their first MP game here. Rated 4th because of the civ combo.
   
5. RFS (Mongol, Exp/Fin): Started playing Civ4 just this April. The community here helped RFS in a commendable way to improve RFS's game, so kudos to the RB community. Which brings me to the civ/leader combo. Well talking about an oddball combo. I don't see any great synergy between the traits and the civ itself. The civ is a great offensive civ and I will still have to be cautious around the mongols as soon as they get to Keshiks. Exp is a great trait for the start and there is nothing wrong about that. What really is odd is Fin. Maybe RFS did not start on a river or with a lot of coast near by. Or maybe he wanted to take a totally different peacefully civ like India or Carthage. Or somebody took the civ he wanted before him like Inca or Persia. I don't know. Nonetheless we have our true odd ball civ/leader combo; I think every game needs one of these. Rated 5th because of their lack of experience with MP and the civ/leader combo.
   

So those are our competitors. Let's hope that Coeurva and/or Shallow are not our neighbors.

[Cornflakes]

CKN are good counter to Roman Legions, although come a bit later. I'm sure you know this already, but one thing that surprised me about CKN is that they provide collateral damage when attacking off ships (unlike cats and trebs which only work on land). They also provide collateral damage against Machine Guns, which are immune to collateral from cats/trebs/cannon (this one bit me in the butt in one of the Civ 4 Adventures   ).

With AGG/PRO you will probably have to make your decisive move on the battlefield somewhat earlier than the typical wisdom suggests, before the more economic-oriented traits have time to shine. Your Granary production is really the only early advantage you have other than promotions. Don't build more military than you need very early [And don't scout with an Axeman  ]. But then when you decide the time is right to attack, go all out with as much as you can produce and bring 2x the number of units you think you need.

Metal Casting tech and Forges are both very expensive for the early game and you may find yourself falling behind if you go there before the more traditional Currency path. Also it will take 34 turns to generate a GEngineer unless you go for a more polluted pool 50/50 scientist/engineer (which also requires writing + library so may not be quicker than a direct beeline).

[Charriu]

CKN are good counter to Roman Legions, although come a bit later.

Yes, that's right, but getting them before a roman player attacks is difficult.

I'm sure you know this already, but one thing that surprised me about CKN is that they provide collateral damage when attacking off ships (unlike cats and trebs which only work on land).

I learned that while reading about CKN rushing. Did not know that before and I hope there is an opportunity to use it this game.

They also provide collateral damage against Machine Guns, which are immune to collateral from cats/trebs/cannon (this one bit me in the butt in one of the Civ 4 Adventures   ).

Wow, I did not expect that this would be relevant in any game, because of the different eras of both units.

With AGG/PRO you will probably have to make your decisive move on the battlefield somewhat earlier than the typical wisdom suggests, before the more economic-oriented traits have time to shine. Your Granary production is really the only early advantage you have other than promotions. Don't build more military than you need very early [And don't scout with an Axeman  ]. But then when you decide the time is right to attack, go all out with as much as you can produce and bring 2x the number of units you think you need.

Good to know, but the maintenance bonus from Agg also helps right from the beginning, although I have to admit that the impact is bigger in the end of a game.

[And don't scout with an Axeman  ]

Oh, yeah, my performance in PB39. I know I will feel ashamed for that for the next decade.  Be assured that I learned my leason and won't do that again.

Metal Casting tech and Forges are both very expensive for the early game and you may find yourself falling behind if you go there before the more traditional Currency path. Also it will take 34 turns to generate a GEngineer unless you go for a more polluted pool 50/50 scientist/engineer (which also requires writing + library so may not be quicker than a direct beeline).

That's why I'm not fully into this strategy. But then is there any faster way to get to CKN, before I get rushed by praetorians. Another way to stop praetorian production is to cut off the iron supply, but if the map is as lush as PB39 (4 iron around my territory) it won't happen. But let's first see who our neighbors are.

[Zalson]

yeah our primary goal should be that second city site and 3rd city site. I think my biggest concern is our time to city 3. What was the food at in the capital at on t36? Maybe we chop and whip the 3rd city around turn 40-42? We will need to get the workboat out too.

We need to get to slavery quickly once we have pottery; then we whip the granaries at size 2 at nearly full food (we want to regrow in 1 turn) and then we are off to the races.

City 2 should go ... maybe barracks first?   Depending on what the other sites offer we should chose quickly what kind of city it needs to be. If we get a copper/high production site, I think it makes a barracks and military pump useful.  I’d prefer a high food site than can share with the cap so we grow faster on to cottages. We’ll  see...

There’s no philosophical and no org and no spiritual and no creative.. The aggressive civs will aid expansion. But maybe Joao would have been useful? Or Sury? ... that’s more idle speculation than anything else.

This was a super challenging post from my phone. Dunno if there’s more before we see the map.