[SPOILERS] Charriu and Zalson are fighting the honorable post count war!

[Charriu]

T61:

---

International: What are you doing with that axeman there, Shallow. I don't think that this is meant to attack me. The good thing War Wilhelm moving here is, we got trade connections to Shallow, so let's see what he has.


I must say I'm very relieved to not see horses here. And there were more good news coming.






Superdeath did not settle the ivory in the north-east. It is just a barbarian city. Which brings us to the "bad" news for this turn.



Another barbarian warrior is comming for my western border; nothing to be afraid of.

Graphs:

As promised I got graphs on Shallow







I like how my food graph goes up just as Shallow's goes down.



Shallow is definitly building up some military. I finished a spearman this turn and the galley next turn. That should increas my power score and hopeful direct Shallow's attack towards RFS.

[Zalson]

What is the tile that Siren's going to pick up? When do we get it on an improved tile?

Also: Coeurva is NOT the top crop yield, based on these graphs. Also, that tile you have marked 1E of Wind Raptor probably wants to be a farm ... actually, that can be shared with the cap so a cottage there is fine.

And we whipped down to size 1 at Karlabos? Oof. We should probably avoid doing that if we can in the future, right? Better to grow to 3 and whip off the unimproved tile than to run it down to 1, even if only for 1 turn.

[Zalson]

begin:badForm
We should request a reload back to the turn where we had bad luck and barbarians ate both of our units and also a reload to where we improved the riverside mine instead of the copper hill. Or maybe go back one turn and don't whip down to size 1? Or redo all our mistakes once we realize them?
/end:badForm

Sorry, for the saltiness. But lurkers love drama so...

I thought people were getting excited in the lurker thread over Cornflakes' plan. Alas, it was not meant to be.

[Zalson]

I am preserving the salt for posterity's sake but I regret it. Trash-talking is when I tend to fail miserably -- and I'm not even playing this game!

[Charriu]

What is the tile that Siren's going to pick up? When do we get it on an improved tile?

Also: Coeurva is NOT the top crop yield, based on these graphs. Also, that tile you have marked 1E of Wind Raptor probably wants to be a farm ... actually, that can be shared with the cap so a cottage there is fine.

And we whipped down to size 1 at Karlabos? Oof. We should probably avoid doing that if we can in the future, right? Better to grow to 3 and whip off the unimproved tile than to run it down to 1, even if only for 1 turn.

Siren will pick up a grasland cottage (1NE of the river mine)

I will take the whipping advice into account.

[Charriu]

begin:badForm
We should request a reload back to the turn where we had bad luck and barbarians ate both of our units and also a reload to where we improved the riverside mine instead of the copper hill. Or maybe go back one turn and don't whip down to size 1? Or redo all our mistakes once we realize them?
/end:badForm

Sorry, for the saltiness. But lurkers love drama so...

I thought people were getting excited in the lurker thread over Cornflakes' plan. Alas, it was not meant to be.

In that case I'm very boring, because I try to keep emotions out of it. I understand your complain, but what good would it bring to complain about the map now. It won't change anything.

[Charriu]

The key with whatever path you choose for long-term victory is to identify the biggest obstacles, identify the minimum requirements you need to overcome the obstacles, identify the critical path and limiting factors (commerce, hammers, etc.) and cut out any fat that does not help you achieve the necessary objectives.

Coming back to Cornflakes good advice. In my opinion the biggest obstacles for winning are Coeurva and Shallow, who are running away with this game. I would say that I'm better or on even terms with RFS, Superdeath and Magic, which is mainly because of the "War of no gains" between Superdeath and Magic. I'm currently behind Coeurva and Shallow and is absolutely important to get on even terms with them or better then them. There's another thing to consider in here and it's the fact that those two are natural allies in this game, so I don't expect any early or mid conflict between those. Being between those two I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Like you already mentioned my traits don't give me that much of an early advantage like Imp and Exp does for them.

So what to do about this situation. Like you already said the only way to get even with them is by expanding and conquering another players home. I need to expand to the gold and gems quickly to deny them these vital resources and I'm already working on this. With 3 or 4 cities inland I should be good so far. I also don't see any land worth expanding to in the northern directions. Most of the good land so far is accross the shore. This leaves only conquest to grow my empire.
Attacking any one of them early will just strengthen the other one, so that's off the table. I also need a rather quick conquest without so much of delaying my own progress. This leaves RFS as the only target for me. That's good because he's propably the easier target then Shallow. The only problem here is that Shallow will propably start conquering RFS, too. So RFS will very likely be divided between Shallow and me, which leaves both of us as the only southern players. I don't think that Shallow will start conquering my land after RFS in this case, as it would just slow him down and give Coeurva an edge. I should get on good terms with Shallow, because we may need to work together later. It will also be very important that Shallow and Coeurva will be neighbors in the future. So conquering land that will put me between those two will not help. They need to start fighting at some point in time to preserve the balance of power.

This leaves just the question of how to conquer RFS. I think the best way is to use some 2-movers together with 1-movers shipped around via galleys. The crucial techs for these are Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Metal Casting and Machinery. My gut feeling tells me that I need to be quick and ready to conquer RFS before Shallow does it. Teching for Mysticism->Polytheism->Priesthood->Oracle (Machinery), might be too late. I think going for Iron Working after Writing would be the best; it would be finished in T78. By that time I would have already build the rice and gold city and would only need to build the gems city, which could happen while I'm researching Horseback Riding. For comparison Priesthood would also be finished in T78, but then I would need to research Metal Casting and build the oracle, which takes more time as Horseback Riding. There's also the chance that somebody gets the oracle before us, which would totally destroy our plan. So going Writing->Iron Working->Horseback Riding is much more reliable. I may also don't need Horseback Riding right away, because chariots might be enough for RFS.

For this plan to work I will need Wind Raptor and Siren get on hammers, while Exdeath provides enough commerce to keep afloat. The southern island city will provide good trade income and I may be able to put out a galley or two from there, but it won't contribute that much to military production because of lack of hammers. Karlabos will have to provide me with workers and stuff that I need in the backyard of my empire. Gold and rice city will also need to contribute military.

[Charriu]

I analyzed Shallow's power graph and found this:

• 3 warriors
  
• 2 axemen
  
• 2 barracks
  
• The rest is pop and techs
  

I'm unsure what the last 1000 in T60 and 5000 in T59 are.

All in all my fear of an attack by Shallow was not justified. But if his axeman comes closer to Karlabos, I have to send an archer into the city.

[Zalson]

begin:badForm
We should request a reload back to the turn where we had bad luck and barbarians ate both of our units and also a reload to where we improved the riverside mine instead of the copper hill. Or maybe go back one turn and don't whip down to size 1? Or redo all our mistakes once we realize them?
/end:badForm

Sorry, for the saltiness. But lurkers love drama so...

I thought people were getting excited in the lurker thread over Cornflakes' plan. Alas, it was not meant to be.

In that case I'm very boring, because I try to keep emotions out of it. I understand your complain, but what good would it bring to complain about the map now. It won't change anything.

I think your excellent reporting brings the lurkers out in tens. TENS!

As for your plans, I think Wind Raptor and exdeath have enough hammers to put out the units normally; maybe gold and rice city once settled bring out the defenders after the fact? We will basically have 2 cities who can helpfully contribute to the war effort.

Can we obscure our motives by adding espionage to RFS? the longer we can conceal the build up the better -- we also really need to know where his cities are.

Do we want to go:

Writing/HBR/Math/Masonry/Construction?

[Charriu]

begin:badForm
We should request a reload back to the turn where we had bad luck and barbarians ate both of our units and also a reload to where we improved the riverside mine instead of the copper hill. Or maybe go back one turn and don't whip down to size 1? Or redo all our mistakes once we realize them?
/end:badForm

Sorry, for the saltiness. But lurkers love drama so...

I thought people were getting excited in the lurker thread over Cornflakes' plan. Alas, it was not meant to be.

In that case I'm very boring, because I try to keep emotions out of it. I understand your complain, but what good would it bring to complain about the map now. It won't change anything.

I think your excellent reporting brings the lurkers out in tens. TENS!

I seriously doubt that my reporting is excellent.    There's still room for for improvement. But while we are on that topic if any of the silent lurkers has any questions, feel free to ask them.

As for your plans, I think Wind Raptor and exdeath have enough hammers to put out the units normally; maybe gold and rice city once settled bring out the defenders after the fact? We will basically have 2 cities who can helpfully contribute to the war effort.

Well Siren can also start producing units with lower hammer costs like archers or chariots. With the pigs, ivory and a mine on the plains hill it has an output of 8 hammers. With a little bit of overflow that's an archer every 3 turns.

Can we obscure our motives by adding espionage to RFS? the longer we can conceal the build up the better -- we also really need to know where his cities are.

Actually I forgot to reassign espionage after I got graphs on Shallow. I will definitly start putting espionage into RFS again. About his cities. We know at least 2 of his 3 cities and both are at the coast.

Do we want to go:

Writing/HBR/Math/Masonry/Construction?

I was thinking more about Writing/Iron Working/HBR/Masonry/Math/Construction. With Shallow as his other neighbor RFS might suspect an attack via horse. Also this is his current army according to power graph:

• 3 warriors
  
• 1 axeman
  
• 1 spearman
  
• Either another warrior or a tech with 2000 points. Have to check that.