Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[AdrienIer]

The number of refugees in Europe since 2010 is under 5m. Since 2015 it's around 3m. The peak is way behind us, from 1.3m in 2015 to a likely (no final numbers yet) 500k in 2017. 5m means less than 1% of the EU population, in a 1 time crisis. That's definitely manageable.

[Grotsnot]

What is reducing the number? Or is that a per-year figure?

[ipecac]

"Millions" of refugees flooded Europe. Huh weird, didn't notice this, and I live here. Maybe it's because that is Fox News level bologna? It's a few million at most, well within the Eu's carrying capacity.

A few million = millions. If you must be dishonest don't make it so transparent.

You did shift from using leftist to globalist though, which are not the same thing, but I do have to give you credit for at least coming up with a slightly more apt term. To bad you chose to use a one you don't find outside of conspiratorial webnews though.

I also have not and do not support Bernie Sanders for exactly the reason of his protectionist tendencies. I am very far left on social issues but more right wing/centrist on economic ones. I am not on board with libertarians however, as I think there is a role for goverment in dealing with externalities and pushing markets towards more perfect completion (breaking up monopolies and such). I am above all a globalist though. I can only advocate for tarrifs in very limited circumstances to try and compel China to obey global norms.

Quit while you're behind.

[ipecac]

What is reducing the number? Or is that a per-year figure?

Among other things, Turkey held back many as a bargaining chip with the EU. There's also been the opposition by much of the local European people after the first year, causing politicians to back-peddle a little.

But such opposition is far-right, fascist, and racist of course. The enlightened human thing to do is to let millions more in.

[AdrienIer]

the opposition by much of the local European people after the first year

Opposition by a vocal minority you mean.
That opposition is either racist or merely inhumane, but in this case I suspect that racism is part of the problem.
The refugee wave was created by the troubles in Syria and Iraq, as well as the return of the Talibans in many parts of Afghanistan. Now that the problems in Syria and Iraq are receding the number of refugees at our door is diminishing. IMO it proves that it would have been right to organize the transfer of refugees in 2015-2016, because it was not a continuous arrival of 1m people a year, it was a temporary crisis that should have been dealt as such. Organizing the arrival of ~7m people, in the matter of a decade, with participation from all EU countries (and maybe even international help from countries like Canada), would have been manageable.

[Japper007]

But such opposition is far-right, fascist, and racist of course.

First step to solving a problem with your political side of the ilse is admitting there is one, good for you!

[ipecac]

But such opposition is far-right, fascist, and racist of course.

First step to solving a problem with your political side of the ilse is admitting there is one, good for you!

Nationalism is winning, where's the problem?

[ipecac]

the opposition by much of the local European people after the first year

Opposition by a vocal minority you mean.
That opposition is either racist or merely inhumane, but in this case I suspect that racism is part of the problem.
The refugee wave was created by the troubles in Syria and Iraq, as well as the return of the Talibans in many parts of Afghanistan. Now that the problems in Syria and Iraq are receding the number of refugees at our door is diminishing.

Sounds like it's time for them to go back, since peace is being restored.

IMO it proves that it would have been right to organize the transfer of refugees in 2015-2016, because it was not a continuous arrival of 1m people a year, it was a temporary crisis that should have been dealt as such. Organizing the arrival of ~7m people, in the matter of a decade, with participation from all EU countries

Not all of EU countries want to participate, and over time fewer like Italy want to, placing a higher burden on the remaining countries. Furthermore, the opportunistic 'refugees' themselves try to get into the places with more welfare, hence the Calais camps full of people trying to enter into the UK, even though France is itself first-world and safe.

So your statement that the 'refugees' make up "less than 1%" of EU population is totally irrelevant, since they're clearly not evenly spread out.

[Japper007]

Nationalism is winning, where's the problem?

Not in Europe, "Nationalist" parties have not won a major election anywhere except Eastern Europe, which has not had time to establish healthy democracies yet. It's only been twenty years since they got free from communism, they still have to go through the same ugly puberty that the rest of Europe went through a hundred years ago (can you even imagine the Netherlands had a Patriot movement that argued for an armed citizenry? Luckely we got over ourselves eventually...  ). Give it time and they'll find themselves along the rest of Europe.

We'll see about America, remember that Trump didn't even win 2016 (didn't come close to having the popular vote, even when running against a very divided Democratic party) and 2020 is not near to being bagged yet. Maybe he is only the last very ugly outbreak of acne before America gets over it's last "phase" and joins the Western World as a truly modern democracy.

Also wow in your own words the "Nationalism" that is supposed to be winning here is Fascist, far right and racist. I hope that is not the Nationalism you'd like to see win.

[ipecac]

Not in Europe, "Nationalist" parties have not won a major election anywhere except Eastern Europe, which has not had time to establish healthy democracies yet. It's only been twenty years since they got free from communism, they still have to go through the same ugly puberty that the rest of Europe went through a hundred years ago (can you even imagine the Netherlands had a Patriot movement that argued for an armed citizenry? Luckely we got over ourselves eventually...  ). Give it time and they'll find themselves along the rest of Europe.

Consider the way things were five years ago, in 2013. Now look forward throughout 5 years to the present. Growing nationalism, despite all the demonisation and censorship, all over the West. Immigration has become a major issue even in New Zealand.

We'll see about America, remember that Trump didn't even win 2016 (didn't come close to having the popular vote, even when running against a very divided Democratic party)

'but they had more ball possession, so akshually they were the winners of the soccer game'

and 2020 is not near to being bagged yet. Maybe he is only the last very ugly outbreak of acne before America gets over it's last "phase" and joins the Western World as a truly modern democracy.

Delusional. The Brexit referendum in the UK, Trump in the USA, Italy is barring its borders to migrants, and Merkel has just clung on. Smaller nations like Denmark are not an exception either. The West is entering a new phase.

Also wow in your own words the "Nationalism" that is supposed to be winning here is Fascist, far right and racist. I hope that is not the Nationalism you'd like to see win.

Whatever I want to see pales to the fact that nationalism is unstoppable. After rampant globalisation and open borders promoted by globalists, the pendulum is swinging back towards nationalism. One must accept reality, and that there are things one can't change.