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Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

A few thoughts about Kavanaugh-Ford case.

1) I was a lawyer for 10 years and my professional opinion is that Ford is most probably full of shit. I have two reasons for that. Firstly, she has very convenient gaps in memory. She does not remember exactly when and where the incident happened - and this is exactly the information which could potentially allow Kavanaugh to refute the accusation by providing an alibi. And yet, this information is usually recoverable with some effort - so it is hard to believe that she sincerely has no way to recall it. Secondly, she ha pretty much admitted that she is strongly motivated by the desire to stop Kavanaugh's nomination, not by the desire for justice/revenge per se. It is not inconsistent with her story being accurate but it removes our prima facie reason to believe her: her motivation is not conditional on the truth of her accusations.

2) It is very obvious that actions committed in high school do not provide any information which could help us to evaluate a character of an adult person. I remember myself at the age of 17. I was a cretin and yet, I was one of the smartest boys in my school. Incidents similar to what Ford has described did happen and I can easily imagine many of my schoolmates doing something like that. Teenage boys are cretins with a very few exceptions but the good thing about them is that they grow up. This is why even if Ford's story is fully accurate, it would be totally unhelpful for the Senate to draw any conclusions about Kavanaugh's current persona. Therefore, the only reasonable action on behalf of the Senate would be to ignore her story entirely.

3) Contrary to a popular opinion, Ford's story is very easy to check. Of course, not by "beyond reasonable doubt" standard which is used in the court of law but by "expert opinion" standard. It is very difficult to lie convincingly and consistently. It requires mental discipline and a high degree of self-control which neither Kavanaugh nor Ford have, in my opinion. All you need to do is to send an experienced interrogator to question Kavanaugh, Ford, and Judge. It will take three days and by the end of the procedure it would be obvious for an expert who is telling the truth and who is not.

4) Still, it was very unreasonable for the Senate to ask FBI for a background check as it sets a terrible precedent. It is much easier to invent bullshit accusations than to check their credibility. In this way, such precedent creates a potential to delay any political appointment for eternity.

5) I think that Americans should take a few women who came out with accusations which have been proven false and through them to prison. This is the only way to restore sanity, as currently the cost of slanderous accusations is way too low.

6) By the way, the position of a person, who is being accused of crime, is always more difficult than the position of his accuser. I think, someone here asserted an opposite opinion. This is incredibly naive.

7) Contrary to what I have read in a bunch of liberal media articles today, Kavanaugh has a right to be angry about this situation and to express this anger. This is a right which any person unfairly accused of a crime has.
(And, of course, if he remained calm, he would be labeled as "cold" and "inhuman". There is no way to win this game.)

8) As far as I know, Kavanaugh participated in a similar bullying campaign against Clinton. This fact makes this whole thing kind of karmic smile

(September 29th, 2018, 12:40)Gavagai Wrote: 3) Contrary to a popular opinion, Ford's story is very easy to check. Of course, not by "beyond reasonable doubt" standard which is used in the court of law but by "expert opinion" standard. It is very difficult to lie convincingly and consistently. It requires mental discipline and a high degree of self-control which neither Kavanaugh nor Ford have, in my opinion. All you need to do is to send an experienced interrogator to question Kavanaugh, Ford, and Judge. It will take three days and by the end of the procedure it would be obvious for an expert who is telling the truth and who is not.

Wait, if that's true then how has anyone ever been falsely convicted? How much do those experts charge per hour?

A prosecutor specialized in this kind of crime asked Ford questions for almost an hour on behalf of the republicans. She doesn't seem to have found holes in Ford's story. I think her professional opinion is going to be more interesting than yours, even if she's very much biased towards Kavanaugh.

(September 29th, 2018, 11:57)RFS-81 Wrote: I think you misunderstand the essay a bit. It's not so much about the actual positions, but about how the most controversial take is always boosted. For example, if someone wanted to argue against Bernie Sanders, they could say that his policies are too expensive, or whatever - nobody cares. Or they could say that you only support Bernie over Hillary because you're a straight white man who doesn't want a woman in power...

I don't quite see how this applies to Kavanaugh, though.

The more ambiguous a case is, the more likely it is to explode in a toxoplasma of rage. Eric Gardner was a pretty blatant unjustified police killing. But no one got upset over it (well, you know what I mean), because pretty much everyone agreed, yep, that was awful, and moved on to fighting about Michael Brown some more. 

The Kavanaugh accusation is riding that sweet spot of ambiguity. There's no way to know the truth - just her word, basically. So it's quite easy to disagree about in a way that wasn't possible with, for example, Roy Moore. Furthermore, the Supreme Court is about the highest stakes possible in the US, so naturally everyone wants to fight about it even more.
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(September 29th, 2018, 13:32)RFS-81 Wrote:
(September 29th, 2018, 12:40)Gavagai Wrote: 3) Contrary to a popular opinion, Ford's story is very easy to check. Of course, not by "beyond reasonable doubt" standard which is used in the court of law but by "expert opinion" standard. It is very difficult to lie convincingly and consistently. It requires mental discipline and a high degree of self-control which neither Kavanaugh nor Ford have, in my opinion. All you need to do is to send an experienced interrogator to question Kavanaugh, Ford, and Judge. It will take three days and by the end of the procedure it would be obvious for an expert who is telling the truth and who is not.

Wait, if that's true then how has anyone ever been falsely convicted? How much do those experts charge per hour?

Fale convictions because of an honest mistake are actually quite rare in a functioning justice system because of "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of proof. When it happens, it is usually because the convict is implicated by a heavier evidence than a witness testimony.

(September 29th, 2018, 13:39)AdrienIer Wrote: A prosecutor specialized in this kind of crime asked Ford questions for almost an hour on behalf of the republicans. She doesn't seem to have found holes in Ford's story. I think her professional opinion is going to be more interesting than yours, even if she's very much biased towards Kavanaugh.

I watched some fragments of this interrogation and got an impression that it was a political circus, nothing more. She was forced to ask questions in five minutes segments, this already makes doing a normal job impossible. And I think she was limited in respect of what kind of questions she could ask.

Also, "an hour" is an absolutely insufficient time for a normal interrogation. It should be something about 5-6 hours with a couple short coffee-breaks.

I don't think she was limited in respect to what she could ask, I haven't heard anyone say that. But whatever the circumstances she couldn't find any holes, and even stopped trying at the end.

You're really one of the last people who think she's lying. The republicans have agreed to a FBI investigation because she appeared so credible that they had no other choice. Trump is starting to open the gates for a possible rejection of Kavanaugh by the senate (he specifically said that Collins and Murkowski should vote their conscience, and that it would be fine whatever their choice).

(September 29th, 2018, 14:42)AdrienIer Wrote: she couldn't find any holes, and even stopped trying at the end.

Was Ford able to remember when and where it happened? If she was not and the prosecutor stopped trying to make her recall it after less than an hour, she was not trying hard enough.
I remember she was asking questions like "who paid for a lie detector" and this is the question she should not have asked if she really tried to establish the truth about the assault. It is already clear that Ford's motives are compromised but by itself it does not establish the falsity of her story, so pushing this point further is a waste of time. I think the prosecutor was doing a political, not an investigative job in this case.
To be clear - I think that an assault was most likely real or, at least, if it was a fiction, it was a fiction manufactured by Ford for a reason unrelated to the current controversy. But I think that she does not really remember the identity of her attackers and the idea that Kavanaugh was among them is a very late invention.
On the other hand, I suspect that Kavanaugh is genuinely uncertain that this assault has never happened. The reports of his heavy drinking seem to be correct and it is a very usual thing to totally forget events which have happened while you have been drunk. This is part of the reason why he is so emotionally unbalanced.



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