November 26th, 2018, 17:29
(This post was last modified: November 26th, 2018, 17:30 by Zed-F.)
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I agree that hunting-archery-BW would have been the safest choice on turn 9 - SD knew Comm was in the area, and had thought about a rush, but allowed hoping for the best (get axes) to preclude preparing for the worst (not getting them fast enough). I don’t think the map is the culprit here.
November 26th, 2018, 17:40
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(November 26th, 2018, 17:02)Krill Wrote: Look at it this way. If we swapped the starts for superdeath and Commodore, would this situation have been any different? No, because the issue is Commodore has PRO/CRE Mali and it doesn't matter what superdeath has. The problem isn't the map, it's the leaders, civs and players. They started 13 tiles apart, which is normal at this map size.
Agreed this far. I'm not sure I agree it would have been the same if the overall land shape were such that Commodore saw a good city site away from superdeath. I guess it's really down to whether Commodore thought he had no choice but to fight, or if he thought that skirmishers are good and you should use things that are good when the opportunity presents itself.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
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November 26th, 2018, 17:52
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Commodore would have rushed anyone there. He'd have rushed mackoti in this situation. He would have assessed the situation in terms of the game and abilities and have played it out the same way he has here. Land shape be damned, he was never going to get a better shot at controlling an opponent than with a resourceless, cheap unit that is a third stronger than his opponents best unit, whilst he has the stronger traits for neglecting hammers into expansion and border control.
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November 27th, 2018, 08:42
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Rusten's update looks very strong. Already 25% more food than anyone else with a full set of granaries ready.
I'm curious about his decision to cottage a pair of non-river grass tiles while planning a pyramids build though. My instinct would just be to farm and work specs later.
November 28th, 2018, 16:05
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Did the spoils of war justify the opportunity cost of the Skirmisher rush?
Darrell
November 28th, 2018, 16:57
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Yes imo.
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November 28th, 2018, 17:04
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What are the costs? Teching archery? Cheapest tech in the game. 6 smirks and an axe? 2 of those skirms would be warriors, 3 of them are covered by PRO granary savings and 2 of them by not having to pop borders to grab all the second ring food. So they have traded tempo from early game traits for a mostly dead neighbour, and early enough to rebuild in time for expansion past 5 cities and claiming island cities. The real cost is going to be measured in mid game tech loss and lack of cottages, but that last one is incredibly variable on what for some players is an islands map.
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November 28th, 2018, 18:04
(This post was last modified: November 28th, 2018, 18:12 by Zed-F.)
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Also, we can’t compare Comm’s tempo loss to what he optimally could have done if he had had an island sandbox start. We’d have to compare to a situation where Comm has maybe another city but SD is still alive with multiple mainland cities and still able to make a nuisance of himself, minimally by forcing Comm to maintain a higher power than he otherwise might — especially since SD is known to be pretty aggressive.
Given the combat luck Comm had and the (probable) relatively inexpensive claim of a rival capital city, I’d say the roll of the dice was definitely worthwhile.
November 29th, 2018, 10:44
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We need Sesse to give us the centipawn advantage  . But you both make compelling cases, I'm convinced.
Darrell
November 29th, 2018, 11:25
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The usual argument against rushing a neighbour on a toroidal map is that you open the land up for the other neighbours. So maybe you get slightly ahead of far flung opponent A but the person who really benefits is the other direct neighbour B. I think we need to see the map shape and how much this logic holds. If they secured a bunch of backlines they can settle at leisure it was worth it. If all that land is contested it is not.
They have definitely set themselves quite a bit behind a peaceful opening IMO, we need to see if it was worth it and they can catch back up.
More mid game invasions tend to make a lot more sense, because the opportunity cost of the units is lower and you can actually capture cities, adding their snowball(buildings, improvements etc.) to yours.
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