Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Charriu]

I promised that I would get more into detail about changes. So here it is:

Nerfs:

China: 

• Change starting tech from Mining to Wheel
  

I don't think that China is too powerful. Most people take it for their UU and the starting civs. I would not touch the UU, but I changing the starting techs could discourage taking China in every game a bit.

Inca:

• UB stays the same but requires a mountain or hill in the city vicinity or
  
• UB stays the same but looses the trait multiplier, instead it gains a multiplier if there is a mountain or hill in the city vicinity.
  

Too be honest this is a difficult case. It's highly questionable if the above is codeable, but it would increase the flavor of the civ. Inca already has only the UB going for it, but that one is good. Nerfing the starting techs or the UU won't make it any worse.

Mongol

• UB no additional exp bonus, requires archery, +1 culture, no trait multiplier instead horse multiplier
  

This is more or less what you already proposed and I like it. I only think that with the current exp bonus and these changes it would be too powerful. Other then that it's great.

Rome

• Change starting tech from Mining to Wheel
  

Rome is similar to China. People take it for their UU. So as in the case of China changing the starting techs discourages taking it a bit. It also gives us back a fishing/wheel combo which we lost with Japan and it stays in flavor of the civ, just think about the very important roman road network.

Zulu

• Change starting tech from Agriculture to Mysticism
  
• Ikhanda -1 culture, maybe only 10% maintenance reduction
  
• Impi: Maybe there is a way to make it a only-on-flatland 2 mover
  

This is the big one. In my opinion everything is still great with this civ currently. Great starting techs, great UU and great UB. The first two changes are propably the more important ones. The last only looks to be complicated to implement, maybe with a special promotion only for impis?


Buffs:

Aztec:

• Jaguar - replaces swordsman - no resources needed, -1 strength, gets +5% strength from every unhappiness caused by slavery or
  
• Jaguar - replaces swordsman - no resources needed, -1 strength, leadership promotion
  

I always found the UU a bit lackluster. As with some other changes, I highly doubt that the first point is codeable. If it is the +5% are propably to strong and might need to be lower. In the case that is not codeable I proposed an alternative, which might be to strong.

Babylon

• Change starting tech from Wheel to Mysticism
  
• Law stone - replaces courthouse - available at Priesthood, -30 hammers (may need a better name)
  
• Bowman gets sentry in addition to melee bonus
  

Yes, this new building is the same as the Sumerian one, which is why I give them another UB later. I always found it strange that Sumeria has this UB as it was Babylon, which was heavy on law, just think about Hammurabi's Code of Law. So this is a change to make the civ more flavorful and it's also an interesting UB. Giving Babylon Mysticism gives them a headstart on their way to Priesthood. Lastly the bowman needs to be buffed a little bit. I don't know if sentry is the right one, but it's at least interesting.

England:

• English Longbowman - replaces longbowman - +2 strength, - 15% city defense (may need a better name) or
  
• English Longbowman - replaces longbowman - +2 strength, + 25% against melee and mounted units (may need a better name)
  

Their current UU comes just a bit to late as does their UB. I think by moving one of them to an earlier time, this civ could be choosen a lot more often. I like their current UB, so the UU has to move. To be honest I always found it strange that every civ has access to longbowmen, when I always associated them with England. We also have no UU replacing the longbowman right now, so that change seemed logical. With those changes I wanted to push the UU more out of the city and fighting in the field, which can be interesting.

Germany:

• Landwehr - replaces Musketman - +1 movement (name is debatable, Prussian Infantry would also fit)
  
• Move Assembly plant to replacable parts, but leave it unchanged otherwise. Maybe give it a different model and name (Zeche? Those are german mines)
  

People already said that the assembly plant is interesting, so I don't want to change it. But what needed to go was the current UU. It's the most boring unit in the game in my opinion. What I did with the first point is taking away the UU from France and giving it to Germany, don't worry France will get another, which is also a bit more flavorful. I think the highly mobile unit fits Germany better. Everybody knows about the later Blitzkrieg, but even before in the time of the German Empire the army was trained to be fast and aggressive.

Japan:

• Dojo - replaces Barracks - gets additional +1XP to Gunpowder, +1XP to Mounted, +1XP to Armour, +2XP to Melee
  

Yes, I did it again and took one UB from another civ, this time America. I think this change helped America being more relevant, but I thought that this UB would fit other civs better. This UB also helps the samurai, which is already interesting, but not considered to strong by most players.

Korea:

• Hwacha - stays the same as now, but gets the additional "Targets melee units first outside a city" and either "hits 2 more units with collateral damage" or
  
• applies collateral damage when defending
  
• Seowon - replaces library instead of university and only gets a +1 scientist
  

I think the target melee part should be codeable, because Khmer already has something similar. This alone should help this unit to be interesting and relevant. The other two changes are only for flavor. The Seowon change helps it to be more relevant, but is not that interesting in itself.

Maya:

• Holcan gets additional CG1
  
• Ball Court - replaces Colliseum - gets stone multiplier, +1 happiness, artist specialists in this city give +1 happiness
  

The first change isn't that important and only makes this units role in an emergency defense scenario stronger. The more interesting change is the one to the Ball Court, which might not be codeable. At least I would give the Ball Court the stone multiplier, which is fitting for the civ.

Native America:

• Change starting tech Fishing for Hunting
  
• Dog Soldier - replaces Axeman - no resources needed, Woodsman 1, -1 strength, -5 hammer
  
• Totem Pole - replaces Monument - +3 exp for archers, +2 culture instead of only +1 from base or
  
• Totem Pole - replaces Monument - +3 exp for archers, Woodsman 2 for archers
  

The first change is just for flavor and to improve the civ a little bit. The Dog soldiers are now basically what the Aztec Jaguar is now, but with a different unit replacement. This unit might be to strong right now. Lastly I moved the Totem Pole to Archery, so that you can make better use of it. Teching Archery is just as cheap as Mysticism and most people tech Archery anyway. That way you need to go to Mysticism for Monuments, which most people don't do. And yes the Woodsman changes look awfully familiar. I'm looking at you Celts with your hill bonuses. But this could be interesting.

Russia:

• Lavra - replaces Colliseum - in addition to the base building you get +1 free spy specialist, spy specialist in this city give +2 science
  

Again I'm not sure if this is codeable, but it looks interesting to me. It also may help Russia to Cossacks, which I did not want to change as people like them and they where the main reason people took them in the past.

Spain:

• Conquistador available at Nationalism or
  
• Conquistador don't require Gunpowder
  
• Citadel in addition to the current bonus it gives +5 exp to naval units or
  
• Citadel in addition to the current bonus it gives +1 happiness from silver
  

Make Conquistador available a little bit early strengthens them. The two Citadel changes are to make the civ more flavorable (silver) or interesting (naval)



Follow Up changes:

America:

• Town Hall - replaces Granary - +10 GPP at city growth or
  
• Town Hall - replaces Granary - +2 GPP
  

America needed a new UB because Japan got theirs. I think America getting something around Great People is very fitting considering how many important people the USA brought forth. I like the first change more, as it's more interesting, but again may not be codeable. Numbers may need to be balanced also.

France:

• Chevalier - replaces knight - +25% against melee and mounted units, -25% against archers
  

Germany took Frances previous UU, so they needed a new one. Chevalier should be in flavor of this civ, as the whole concept of knighthood is related to france. 25% against both melee and mounted units might be to strong, so I'm willing to keep it at 25% against mounted units. Funnily the -25% against archers allows the new English Longbowman to be even with this UU.

Sumeria:

• Ziggurat - replaces Monument - +1 happiness in addition to base building or
  
• Ziggurat - replaces Library - +1 happiness from every trade route in addition to base building or
  
• Ziggurat - replaces Library - +25% trade income in addition to base building or
  

This time Babylon took their UB. When I think about Sumeria the two first thinks that come into my mind are, their religion and their language, which was one of the first languages in the world. The first point reflects the religion, while the last two the language. For the last two the Ziggurat might not be the best model, so you might want to find something different. The trade bonuses are in place as their language enabled them to start trading very early and manage their state better.

(Optional) Flavor changes:

Holy Rome:

• Change starting tech from Mysticism to Agriculture
  

Just for flavor and it makes them a little bit better.

Vikings:

• Berserker - replaces Maceman - stays the same as it is right now, but gets the additional +1 movement when embarking from a ship
  

You know how you can move an additional tile, when embarking a ship with the morale promotion. This is just this. I'm not sure this is codeable, but it sounds nice and fitting for the Vikings.


That's it. I'm ready for your honest critique.

[Commodore]

I'd be way less radical than a lot of this. That said, I feel like there are some civs that nobody ever picks:
America
India
Russia*
England
Babylon*
Germany*
*only picked for starting techs in low-choice situations.
There are a few other rough spots, like Persia's UB (hah) or whatever the hell we do about Jags, but those are the big ones.

America: Minutemen down to musket-level.
India: Viable techs, UB pulled earlier.
Russia: UB something that people actually build. Library with +35%?
England: Banks are awkward, maybe new UB: Harbour. Drydock production bonus.
Babylon: Make the Garden worth a damn. +food!
Germany: Give it a UB or UU that appears in a normal game's timescale. Maybe the landsknecht, and give HRE the PALADIN: Leadership/Drill 1 knight?

[shallow_thought]

There are a few other rough spots, like Persia's UB (hah) .

Hey, I built one of those once!

[Gavagai]

England is fine. Its uniques are late but still early enough to matter in a lot of games and they are very strong. I played as England on PB22 (or whatever was that game where Joey backstabbed me) and got a lot of value from both Stock Exchanges and Redcoats.
I generally dislike the idea to eliminate all late-game uniques which seem to be the trend. Large Pitbosses do tend to last until late-game and I think that having something special going on for some civs at that period is cool. Of course, uniques should a) not be TOO late, like Panzer and b) should be really powerful as you need something strong to noticeably affect late-game balance. I think that both these things are done right with England and we should actually use it as a template to balance some other late civs, like Germany.

[Gavagai]

Russia: UB something that people actually build. Library with +35%?
England: Banks are awkward, maybe new UB: Harbour. Drydock production bonus.

Banks and Universities are good builds if sped up by respective traits. It still makes these UBs situational but this is not bad I think. As I understand we do not need to aim at all civs being pickable at any situation; we only want them to be pickable in at least some situations.

[Gavagai]

In respect to the topic in general: I do not have energy to consider it fully now but I say that:
1) Inca should be nerfed, Terrace is ridiculously OP.
2) No UU or UB should be worse than its vanilla counterpart.
3) The fact that a certain UU does not require a strategic resource worth little in RB-games where strategic resources are rarely a problem (it still worth something, though). It was not intended when these UUs were designed.

[Gavagai]

One way to nerf Inca without overnerfing is to make Terrace give some kind of free promo to units instead of culture. Something like cover maybe?

[Krill]

I'm going on holiday tomorrow, so whilst I'm reading this now, I will not be reading this for the next 2 weeks after tomorrow.

What is the right power level for these civs? Is Inca too powerful when it is paired with PRO? I'm not certain that none PRO Inca is OP. Is it worth de-linking some of the UB from the trait production bonus: For example, the terrace could be a flat 60 hammers with no trait modifier, or it could be reduced to, say 50 hammers. Same issue with Zulu, the Ikhanda could be 60 hammers, with a production modifier from, say, iron, and not from AGG.

Because if the civs are too powerful when combined with certain traits, it may be that this is the right process to go down. It may open up options for other civs such as Spain, or a rebuilt India (you are going to have to persuade me that India is fucked in the current set up). That's why we need to decide on what the right power level is, before any changes can even be considered. We need to know what we are aiming for, before we can say what is good or bad.

[Krill]

I'm writing this post now so you can have a read and post your thoughts over the next few days; I'm currently in Ft. Myers Beach with rain pouring from the sky and not much else to do: I should be back home by Saturday lunch time.

I have been figuring out a framework that we can use to understand civs. I think I have something, but it might be a bit controversial.

First of all, starting techs will need to be standardized to a base cost of 45 (this is not the beaker cost of the techs, but the cost the game uses to work out the cost taking in account map so we, game speed and difficulty), as posted previously. All civs will keep two starting techs, but this way we can split out the value of the starting techs from the UU and UB value: the exception being Myst/Wheel combo which will be removed from whichever civs have it.

The framework I've got so far is this. We need a touchstone to use as the basis of comparison for the power of each civ. I believe that Inca are the best civ for this, with certain changes: reduce the cost of the terrace to 45 hammers and remove the production bonus from PRO, for a standard strength civ. We then also need to pin down how the power levels should increase for later can be, and we need to have a "Final civ" which has the strongest UU and UB. I think this should be Russia, because Russia is already a fairly known quantity with the Cossack, which is accepted as strong but late, and the UB can be adjusted as necessary.

To me, the list of civs that I reckon we use to nail then expands to Zulu (again, we can either keep Zulu as is, or remove the trait production bonus, add in iron for a 100% bonus and up the maintenance reduction to 15%), for the really early civs. Classical era civs are Rome and Carthage which imo are perfectly positioned and require no changes. Medieval civs are China and Vikings , but China needs to have the UB brought to Aesthetics and Vikings can have the innate city attack bonus brought up to 25% , in line with the basic mace.

Once we agree on the relative power levels being about right, we can move onto the next phase because we will have something to compare all players of the other civs to.

Then we go through each civ: any civs that are deemed to have most of their power fall after Guilds we can put to one side and do them last, as we fit them in between the Medieval civs and Russia, which is quite a wide gap to cover. We then start at the beginning of the game, with the ancient era civs like Egypt and Sumeria, and move through Maya, Mongolia up to Byzantine. This doesn't mean that every civ needs adjusting, but we will have a method to do this in a semi-systematic fashion.

So...thoughts? I expect the main complaints to be Inca but no one likes Inca

[superdeath]

Bring zulu to 20% reduction, but remove the 100% reduction from AGG trait?

Egypt, seems alright. Maybe find a different OB?
Ill post more at some point.