Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

You can always found two religions and build two temples for a quick shrine. Nice if SPI.

You forgot these:

In all seriousness, and without commenting on current games, when was the last time someone got 2 out of 3 early religions and made it to knights in good shape?

[Krill]

Agree on Sumeria's Priesthood courthouse being worse than on CoL, Writing (or even Pottery or BW) seems a better fit for a building that you shouldn't build so early.

I think you meant Priesthood rather than CoL?

I'm not sure if moving the Ziggarut is enough. It just comes across as bland. I don't think putting specialist slots on it helps either. Early artist slots are straight out. Early GM, GS don't do anything special. Gspy shouldn't be prioritised in game play because their uncounterable and you have no reason not to scout with it until you are ready to pop the first GA. Early GE? Sumeria is the clock on Mids and is faster than Oracle>MC for a forge. Early Priest slots are the only spec slots that fit into the game, and all that does is steal from other civs themes.

[Charriu]

Egypt: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Obelisk. +2 Priest slots. UU: Chariot replacement. War Chariot. Strength 5. -25% against archers. Flank attack against Catapults (3 units, max 100%).

First the easy thing. I like that change and I agree that Egypt does not need much to be good. Like you already said the power comes from the UU. The UB might not be that strong, but it is unique and gives option to some interesting strategies (early shrine). All good for me.

Sumeria: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Courthouse replacement: Ziggurat. Available at Writing. Cost 90. UU: axe replacement. Vulture. Strength 6. 25% bonus against melee. 5% bonus against axemen.

With the current implementation of the UB it is the right choice to move it to Writing. Not only for balance but also because Writing has a strong connection to Sumeria. I also agree that it lacks in power and that only adding some priest slots steals theme from other civs, but this would make the UB better.

When I think about Sumeria the following thing come to mind: Writing, religion, early trade (sumerian coins were found in India) and the rivers. So here are some ideas that could be added to the UB or replace it's bonuses:

• +1 commerce on river tiles: I see two problems with this. It's either too powerful this early in the game and/or it's too situational. But it's at least unique.
  
• +x% modifier on trade: another trade route would clash with Carthage's theme and +1 commerce on every trade route is way too strong.
  
• +1 happiness from wheat, corn or rice: +1 happiness from every one of these resources is too strong.
  
• +1 happiness if city is on fresh water: I doubt this is codeable.
  

[The Black Sword]

Early GM points can be quite interesting for Currency bulb or trade mission IMO. Has the potential to really change how you play the early game.

[Krill]

Iirc I've suggested in the past that the stele just be a monument that got 2 merchant slots and everyone said it was OP.

I'm uncertain what is wrong with the power lever of the ziggarut at Writing. I could just be wrong and the power level is reasonable, with the issue being I think it's boring.

I'm not sure how I'd value a ziggarut giving merchant slots though.

[chumchu]

An infantry unit that is good vs melee and cavalry fits better with the historical greek phalanx. I reiterate my suggestion from earlier:

Phalanx is not bad but seems underwhelming compared to their historical role. Suggestion: make it a spearman with bonus against melee. This is more inline with what it was and makes it more unique. 40 hammers, 4 strength, + 100% vs. cavalry and melee. It is slightly more expensive than a spear but much more versatile. Its biggest weakness is archers which means that it will be bad at taking cities but good in the field. Just like the classical age Greeks =) . Comparison to a dog soldier: - Needs metal and more expensive + has less counters (chariots, wellies and horchers).


Why change Holkan in the first place? With a strong UB, an okay very early UU is fine. As it stands Holkan is nothing special offensively as rushes can be countered with axes takes some time due to the tech requirement. However it helps against a lot of the early dangers: barbs, bad bronze locations and choking units like skirmishers, impis, immortals. This can allow you to get a faster start if you can ignore archery and place the first city on a better economic location than where the bronze is. It makes the Maya start different and slightly stronger which is just the right balance with an early UU IMO.

PB 41 Spoilers

our situation vs pindicator would have been totally different with Holkan as it fights on equal terms  with skirmishers and can not be resource choked.

[superdeath]

Would it be too much to give the Sumeria's UB 1 scientist slot? Gives them maybe a reason to build it earlier along with a library for multiple early scientists? Sumeria did invent alot of things..

[Krill]

• +1 commerce on river tiles: I see two problems with this. It's either too powerful this early in the game and/or it's too situational. But it's at least unique.
  
• +x% modifier on trade: another trade route would clash with Carthage's theme and +1 commerce on every trade route is way too strong.
  
• +1 happiness from wheat, corn or rice: +1 happiness from every one of these resources is too strong.
  
• +1 happiness if city is on fresh water: I doubt this is codeable.
  

The first is horrendously OP full stop IMO. That is way too much base output that is then modified by multipliers every single turn.

The second works slightly differently. If it were +50% to trade route yield IIRC it is additional to the multipliers such as the intercontinental bonus and foreign route bonus. In this instance +50% is worth about 1 commerce per trade route per turn that is not your own, again going through multipliers. OTOH, this actually distorts trade routes so that more valuable ones would be moved from your large core cities into cities with the ziggarut and I think in that instance it is quite possible you actually lose out on total yield because they go through smaller multipliers for some parts of the game. As it can be counter intuitive, I don't think this is a good idea for that reason.

The third seems like it can be quite unfair if there is a single specific food resource that gives +1 happy, that's down purely to RNG or the map maker if Sumeria gets it's +1 happy.

The last isn't codeable IIUC.

Ultimately, I'm not sure if Sumeria is too weak. I don't think it is, I think the issue is more with the blandness. I don't think anyone has ever said Sumeria is too weak, except to say that the vulture really pisses them off in axe combat.

[Krill]

An infantry unit that is good vs melee and cavalry fits better with the historical greek phalanx. I reiterate my suggestion from earlier:

Phalanx is not bad but seems underwhelming compared to their historical role. Suggestion: make it a spearman with bonus against melee. This is more inline with what it was and makes it more unique. 40 hammers, 4 strength, + 100% vs. cavalry and melee. It is slightly more expensive than a spear but much more versatile. Its biggest weakness is archers which means that it will be bad at taking cities but good in the field. Just like the classical age Greeks =) . Comparison to a dog soldier: - Needs metal and more expensive + has less counters (chariots, wellies and horchers).

Realism and historical accuracy have no role in any of this, and will not have any input into the balancing of anything within this mod.

This unit is also extremely poorly thought out. How do you stop that unit from choking? The answer is you can't until Xbows. Phalanxes are just about manageable because they are no better than axes so they can be managed unit v. unit, but that unit can't be managed by anything. It beats every unit until Xbows.

Why change Holkan in the first place? With a strong UB, an okay very early UU is fine. As it stands Holkan is nothing special offensively as rushes can be countered with axes takes some time due to the tech requirement. However it helps against a lot of the early dangers: barbs, bad bronze locations and choking units like skirmishers, impis, immortals. This can allow you to get a faster start if you can ignore archery and place the first city on a better economic location than where the bronze is. It makes the Maya start different and slightly stronger which is just the right balance with an early UU IMO.

The Ball Court is not some uber UB. The Colosseum has two roles: a building for charismatic leaders to access second and third promotions on melee, archery and siege units, and as a fall back in case there is no easily available happiness resources. The BC only increases the latter from "last resort" to "routine method to get specific core cities growing before Calendar and HR is available". For none charismatic leaders, it costs 20 hammer per happy and saves on the unit support costs compared to 15 hammers per happy for left over warriors and 25 hammer per happy from archers. It is not some awesome building that should be built everywhere. Other sources of happiness are cheaper to use and provide happiness empire wide. The BC and colosseums do not. They are only for improving specific cities. The Ball Court is still a niche UB.

With this in mind the UU has to have real power. None of the points you list are such: by making the unit resources it is only conditionally better than a normal spear if copper is poor. All of these choking units are being rebuilt around the concept that archery is actually useful: it is the cheapest tech in the game, and the cost is essentially rounding and differences in river commerce by T50, and archers are being indirectly buffed by these units being nerfed against archers. This makes the holkan less useful as a rush defense.

Copper is not always settled for with the first available settler: barbs cannot enter borders until the third city (unless you are a laggard and the number of cities on the continent reaches 3/player). Barb defense not relevant to this IMO, and barbs tend to spawn warriors and then axes: archers are again perfectly usable and cheaper than holkans against the former and better against the latter. That is not the role of the Holkan. If barbs spawned chariots with regularity I would agree. The holkan is a spearman. It is used to stop chariots from other players fucking with you. Chariots require Horse, Wheel, AH, Hunting. The holkan is not a free pass. Most benefits should not allow you a free pass to ignore what your opponents are doing: you should have to respond and interact, that is the point of civ as a strategy game. In this instance, you have to focus on copper, you have to figure out how to get it in a timely fashion to then have the unit that allows you to ignore them. You do not get to think "I have Maya, I'm fine".

Compare this to the skirmisher: the free strike only slightly changes the odds, it is still a 50/50 against chariots. It can sit in a city and hold it, but it does not stop you from being choked and getting resources pillaged. It requires you respond and be proactive in conflict to hold tiles and not be choked. The skirmisher is not a free pass and is the closest unit that exists in the ancient era to one.

PB 41 Spoilers

our situation vs pindicator would have been totally different with Holkan as it fights on equal terms  with skirmishers and can not be resource choked.

Given the skirmisher is nerfed against archers in this proposal, I don't agree: the holkan would have cost more and been a worse defender than archers. At strength 5 though, the holkan would have been much better in a protracted war after you secured copper as it could have handled skirms and chariots much more easily.

[Krill]

Would it be too much to give the Sumeria's UB 1 scientist slot? Gives them maybe a reason to build it earlier along with a library for multiple early scientists? Sumeria did invent alot of things..

I'm pondering removing the spy slot and giving it two merchant slots. I don't think that is too OP. It gives a route to bulb CoL, or MC, or Currency. The first two are valid Oracle targets, the latter has been done in the past as well. A GP bulb that requires a 90 hammer building and then either 7 or 17 turns wait is going to be slower than that...

I know this has been claimed as too OP, but it's using a GP to bulb a second tier Classical tech, it's no different than using a GS to bulb Calendar. OTOH, Calendar is a real bastard to bulb, and Currency is top of the bulb list and gives immediate payback in trade routes and wealth. For a PHI leader, who could bulb Currency after reaching Maths, they could save an easy 10 turns on Currency which is, what, an extra trade route in every city? But with OB on Alphabet, at least they would be forced to go by Alphabet rather than Maths to leverage this. That would be at best an extra 15-21 commerce per turn for 10 turns? So it's like Bulbing Currency and getting a backfill tech or two. Probably not OP.