Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Charriu]

I like the idea of replacing the spy with a merchant. It's unique and offers interesting strategies.

[pindicator]

Would it be too much to give the Sumeria's UB 1 scientist slot? Gives them maybe a reason to build it earlier along with a library for multiple early scientists? Sumeria did invent alot of things..

I'm pondering removing the spy slot and giving it two merchant slots. I don't think that is too OP. It gives a route to bulb CoL, or MC, or Currency. The first two are valid Oracle targets, the latter has been done in the past as well. A GP bulb that requires a 90 hammer building and then either 7 or 17 turns wait is going to be slower than that...

I know this has been claimed as too OP, but it's using a GP to bulb a second tier Classical tech, it's no different than using a GS to bulb Calendar. OTOH, Calendar is a real bastard to bulb, and Currency is top of the bulb list and gives immediate payback in trade routes and wealth. For a PHI leader, who could bulb Currency after reaching Maths, they could save an easy 10 turns on Currency which is, what, an extra trade route in every city? But with OB on Alphabet, at least they would be forced to go by Alphabet rather than Maths to leverage this. That would be at best an extra 15-21 commerce per turn for 10 turns? So it's like Bulbing Currency and getting a backfill tech or two. Probably not OP.

IIRC, the Obelisk having 2 merchants was being called OP because it enabled really fast Metal Casting or Currency bulbs. (I think this was even before the cost reduction in Metal Casting? Maybe not...) But I think putting it on a Writing tech building that costs 90h is a lot more even than putting it on a 30h building available from Mysticism. A strategy of bulbing Currency would be a way to help Sumeria keep expanding, which would synergize with the Ziggurat's reducing maintenance costs. I just wonder if it's too much, if we're adding things just to make Sumeria flashy and all of it together - the cheaper, earlier courthouse; the 6 strength axe; and now access to early merchants - might be too much in one civ. Honestly, if you added the merchants I'd ask for putting the cost of the Ziggurat back up to 120.

But I also think the buff of moving the Ziggurat off of Priesthood is being undersold. There were a couple times I played Sumeria where I would love that I didn't have to go all the way to CoL in order to start getting courthouses down - and yet got discouraged that I still was forced to go down the religious line instead, especially if I didn't have a strategy of going early religion. But it was still quicker than going for CoL. With putting it at Writing there is no practical tech cost for Ziggurats. Everybody gets writing before their economy is starts feeling the pinch of all those cities.

[Krill]

To be clear, I do not know if Sumeria is OP or UP in 2.0.8.5, and I fully believe that moving Ziggaruts to Writing is a buff (I do not believe that the 5% buff to combat v. axes is anything more than righting a perceived wrong, so I assume that to be a neutral improvement even when I know the value is none zero). I do feel that there is space to move Sumeria upwards to an Inca level power, but how much space? I agree that a court house that is cheap, comes earlier and in a good place to bulb Currency is a bloated item. Probably too bloated. I am more concerned that Sumeria does not have anything of interest on it, it is just a bundle of stats.

If the Ziggarut should get merchant spec slots then it has to go back up to 120 hammers IMO, and the value of the GM bulb becomes a rush to Currency, or MC (which now costs 300 base compared to Currency's 400 base). CoL is inherently weaker if it doesn't have a courthouse on and then the only tech of note is CS, as a Machinery bulb is really far down the list and all the techs that lead to CS are ahead of the bulb list. This is probably less interesting than just having cheaper court houses and freedom to tech however you want, pushing to Lit early, running at Calendar, construction, whatever, as the Merc specs push Sumeria towards an Economics bulb, otherwise they don't actually do anything.

[Charriu]

To recap what we currently have:

Sumeria: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Courthouse replacement: Ziggurat. Courthouse with +1 Merchant slot, Available at Writing. Cost 120. UU: axe replacement. Vulture. Strength 6. 25% bonus against melee. 5% bonus against axemen.

Sounds good to me. I would say leave it as above. Should this be too strong then it could be nerfed in a future version, but with this change it's interesting and that's also worth something.

[pindicator]

The interesting part of the civ to me is having the Courthouse in a different spot than CoL. Writing does make that a little less intriguing than Priesthood because it seems to put so much in one tech - perhaps the difficulty of Priesthood is what makes it more interesting? - but I'm struggling to think of where else you would put it.

And as a not-so-serious contribution, when I read the part about maybe making them an Inca level power, my first thought was "put +1 culture on the Ziggurat!"

[Krill]

That thought crossed my mind as well, tbh it's not the stupidest idea.

[pindicator]

That thought crossed my mind as well, tbh it's not the stupidest idea.

Before your post I was thinking 1 artist slot.  But then I was thinking if they want to pop borders at Writing they can build a library.

[Krill]

Early artists bombs can be lethal, so artist slots are way, way out.

There would be no issue with +1 culture per turn, because at this point every building other than a granary or walls pops borders.

That said, I don't think it's needed.

[Krill]

OK, so it's been another few days, lets stick with this for Sumeria:

Sumeria: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Courthouse replacement: Ziggarut. Available at Writing. Cost 90. UU: axe replacement. Vulture. Strength 6. 25% bonus against melee. 5% bonus against axemen.

Let's do an easy one. Aztecs:

Aztecs: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Court house replacement: Sacrificial Alter. 50% anger duration after sacrificing population, cost 90. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Woodsman 2.

Just bump up the UU to strength 6 and start with W2. Solution: chop forests and jungles next to cities. Prioritise IW for this purpose. As Jag now requires IW, it's not such a rush issue being resourceless. I reckon that is enough to smoth theedge cases where a jag rush might be unstoppable.

[Krill]

Actually, can probably ought to compare Aztecs to Celts:

Celts: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Wall replacement: Dun. Free Guerrilla 2 promotion to units built in this city, no trait production modifier. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Guerilla 2.

Do Aztecs seem UP compared to Celts?