Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[superdeath]

Would it be too much to make their UU a Axe replacement with an extra +25% against melee? They were a really bloodthirsty people.. I just dont see the Aztec as a swordsman kind of civ.

[Krill]

But what does that unit actually do? The only roles for it is anti-sword on defense, on defense it bounces off the token HA or WE that sit in a stack. It also murders every single ancient era unit, including archers until the archers get 70% combat bonuses. So it's probably got unstoppable axe rush written all over it

[Charriu]

Mh but what about making the UU an axeman replacement with Woodsman 1

[Krill]

I've got a theory (yeah, another one...) About how UUs need to be balanced.

Basic units, the ones everyone have access to vary in the utility, the specialization that they have. They all have a role. Swords are pretty much city attacking units, archers are city defenders, spears are solely for stopping mounted entering specific tiles. But there are certain roles, certain generic niches that are filled just by having high strength and mobility: once the cities are covered, everyone builds HA, then Knights, because these units fill all the none specialist roles.

The point of this is where we put power on UU, it pushes the UU to take up new roles: it's fine on specialist units to push into a generic role. Sometimes we create whole new niches: CKN, Carracks, Impi. But when we put power on generic units, it crowds out everything specialist and creates a one right choice.

So to the Jaguar: it has no role other than a city attacker. We can make it a better city attacker, we can push it to fill the role of the axe but that pushes to close to Sumeria. We can give it a stack defender role, but means giving it a bonus against mounted.

[superdeath]

Give Aztecs UU a normal sword with +50% against Harchers? ( or mounted ) Allows Aztec to expand with their early UB helping out on maintanence, while protecting from Harcher punishment?

[Krill]

I was wondering about drill 4 tbh. 20% collateral reduction, 10% against mounted and 2 free strikes pushes them to be all round useful units, but they don't manage against axes any better. I think that is too much though, the UB pretty decent. So just a flat 15% against mounted pushes Jags to defend sound against chariots and push HA to take shock, but are decent city defenders on top of spears.

[Charriu]

That sounds reasonable especially about those niches. What I wonder most with those niches: What is codeable? Here are just some things I've come up. Those are not meant for the Aztec, I'm just curious if those can be done:

1. Flanking bonus against other unit types then Siege
   
2. Ignore some % of city defense
   
3. Medic healing bonus, but only for the unit itself
   
4. The Khmer UU bonus. Also possible with other unit types?
   
5. % strength modifiers based on amount of units in stack
   
6. % strength modifiers based on terrain or can this only be done via promotions like with Celts and Aztec
   
7. "Doesn't receive defense bonus" can this be applied to all unit types or only mounted and siege?
   
8. What about "Can explore enemy territoy" on other unit types?
   
9. What about "Hidden nationality" on other unit types?
   
10. Additional strength with a technology for example archers get +1 strength with machinery
    

[Krill]

1 is actually codeable in the XML now.

2 and 3 require significant SDK coding and new XML tag creation.

4 is codeable with what exists now, but I'm not certain.

I don't even know how 5 would be coded, but it reinforces SoD strategies so I think is just a bad idea full stop.

I think 6 is just a variable in the unitinfos. 7 definitely is on a per unit basis, just look at chariots and the Persian Immortal.

8 and 9 are right out/holyhandgrenade.

10 is codeable via the XML.


6 is the only one that isn't introducing massive changes, which are outside what mechanics already exist.

[Mardoc]

Give Aztecs UU a normal sword with +50% against Harchers? ( or mounted )  Allows Aztec to expand with their early UB helping out on maintanence, while protecting from Harcher punishment?

Doesn't fit thematically, though.

Thematically, you'd want something that's designed for fighting/skirmishing outside of cities, not particularly good at it, but worth doing because it gives you some sort of economic/happiness benefit for victories. Like the Bounty Hunter (gold) or Slavery (half-speed worker) prizes for victory from FFH2. Not sure how much work it would be to port those back from the mod, though.

Personally even though woodsman is weak I like keeping it because it works thematically. Just means that Aztecs are chosen for the UB only.

[Krill]

Why pick Aztecs when Sumeria exists though? Masochism?

The role of a skirmisher is potentially defined as the ability to attack out of a city against a variety of units and have odds to win.

That's the role of HA and Knights. Swords can do it against archers, spears and chariots, but it's more important to do it against HA, hence a proposed bonus against mounted.

Woodsman and guerilla are about choking and holding tiles and being expensive to remove. So I'd argue free formation is more thematic than woodsman.