RtR mod 4.1.0.1 Discussion Thread

[Krill]

I think IND just needs something like a flat 10-20% hammer modifier on ALL buildings to be worth a crap imo.

The original IND was +50% on the iMaxGlobalBuildingProductionModifier, iMaxTeamBuildingProductionModifier, and iMaxPlayerBuildingProductionModifier tags. This is a +50% production for world wonders, buildings that could only exist of 1 per team and National wonders. So we have control over these modifiers in the CIV4TraitInfoes.XML file.

The issue with this implementation has always been that unless you picked up one, or a combination, of Henge, Oracle, Mids and GLH, the trait was essentially useless compared to all the other traits. I still hold that this is the case, and that this implementation distorted games unnecessarily: random leaders and snake pick both put an unknown amount of power onto the IND player, and distorts the early game wonder options.

The implementation in PB42 removed all of this, and gave the option of 2 national wonders of each type (minus Rushmore so WW is not affected) to IND. You know what the problem is with this? There is no finesse, limited choice. The whole trait is then built around getting those national wonders up and running. The choices involve where to put each National wonder, and there are now so many, it becomes quite inflexible to fit them all in. There is no interaction with other players: You are IND, you have to get these buildings down and then use the power that is available in some way.

I think it is better than the previous implementation, because there is not a distortion on the early game wonders. I do not think it is good enough to stand as is though, unless we evolved second set of national wonders over a couple of games. We can do this if people think it's the road we want to go down.

There are other options. The "Whole bunch of slightly cheaper buildings" has been raised before, and it's probably worth exploring. To that end, here is a possible implementation to debate:

IND: New implementation: +35% production of Market, Courthouse, Colosseum, Barracks, Observatory, Coal Plant, Hydro Plant, Nuclear Plant. +100% production of Forge.

+100% production of National Wonders

To put this into perspective, without modifiers, Market, Courthouse and Forge are 390 hammers and getting all these down is a good indicator for being able to fight a longer term war. IND alone drops this to about 260 hammers; Bismark pays around 210 for all of these which is the cheapest it gets to. A player with a single +100% modifier on one of these and OR would pay in the region of 270. IND plus OR is 230 hammers for everything. So IND is really just an always on version of OR. The main buff to IND is that the Classical into Medieval era cities come online a lot faster. Then you go and kill someone. But given that any player with OR is in a similar position, I reckon that IND would still need a buff in this situation. It feels weak if the trait can essentially be replicated by a civic.

[Charriu]

Like the direction you are going with IND. I'm also on board with iron for WE. It's a bit sad loosing the ivory requirement for variety reasons, but I see your point in this.

[Charriu]

Some ideas in addition to your IND changes:

• workers build improvement +X% (25?) faster. Maybe possible with a custom promotion?
  
• 1 extra Hammer on tiles that produce X (4?) hammers 
  
• workers start with mobility (depends on what your plans with India are)
  

[Krill]

The first is just EXP bonus by anothrr name, the second is actually hard to balance but Seven did it in ToW, and India is getting rebuilt.

[Gavagai]

A question: how does new protective work with Oromos? Is the bonus completly lost on them? Or are we rebuilding Oromos, I have not yet read all in civ thread.

[Gavagai]

Also: some attention to civics? Make Emancipation great again take two? After Medieval Era Caste is the one right choice in the labor column, kind of boring.

[Gavagai]

Also: love the idea of moving workshop bonus away from Guilds, the tech was way too powerful. Engineering is pretty much the only good place where we could move it, unless we want to move it further down the tech tree, thus weakening workshops overall (possibly a thing to consider). I would argue that Chemistry is now pretty weak, given that you can get a decent combat boat before it but buffing it with the workshop hammer is probably not the right thing as it will come too late.

[Gavagai]

Possibly a totally crazy idea but how about 1 food per town for Emancipation while keeping feature growth bonus and removing stupid happiness penalty? Makes cottages an interesting alternative to workhops even in a lategame? Also will indirectly buff Free Speech and nerf State Property which is good.

[Krill]

A question: how does new protective work with Oromos? Is the bonus completly lost on them? Or are we rebuilding Oromos, I have not yet read all in civ thread.

All the civs are going to be checked, around one at a time. Ethiopia is probably going to need a rebuild.

Also: love the idea of moving workshop bonus away from Guilds, the tech was way too powerful. Engineering is pretty much the only good place where we could move it, unless we want to move it further down the tech tree, thus weakening workshops overall (possibly a thing to consider). I would argue that Chemistry is now pretty weak, given that you can get a decent combat boat before it but buffing it with the workshop hammer is probably not the right thing as it will come too late.

Between Engineering and Guilds, there is the Knight, Pike, Castle, Road movement and workshop bonus hammer, Engineering is easier to get to as it does not Require Monarchy>Feudalism but only requires Construction, and they still cost the same. I reckon there is scope to keep the combined cost the same but change it for each tech, and/or move the effects around between techs, IF we think this is something that would be helpful to make meaningful decisions.

Chemistry, would it make sense to move one of the watermill, workshop or mine hammer bonuses from Rep Parts to Chemistry? At the same time, Chemistry is on the way to Grenadiers, SoL, Cannon and drydocks, and Rifles are the only military units on the line to Rifling. Part of the role of Chemistry is to act as a spacer to those military techs, even if the tech itself isn't that useful. I'm not sure if the weakness of Chemistry as a tech is actually a problem.

Possibly a totally crazy idea but how about 1 food per town for Emancipation while keeping feature growth bonus and removing stupid happiness penalty? Makes cottages an interesting alternative to workhops even in a lategame? Also will indirectly buff Free Speech and nerf State Property which is good.

Also: some attention to civics? Make Emancipation great again take two? After Medieval Era Caste is the one right choice in the labor column, kind of boring.

This version of the mod is just aimed at making a stable update. After that point then I figure this is something we do want to look at again for a test game. For this mod though, the civics are "good enough".

Emancipation is screwed because it's on an optional tech, and Caste isn't. So the first point is it needs to get moved. The happiness stuff can be removed with no loss as well. Beyond that I don't know, except that Caste will always have a stupid level of utility from the infinite specialist slots, and unless that issue is dealt with Caste will always have one aspect that is unapproachable in power level for the other civics.

Free Speech and SP are both on optional techs, so the competition isn't that bad between them: it is fixable.

[Gavagai]

I think +1 food per town worth a try in some kind of test game in the future. And I am not sure that infinite specialists are that strong in the late game. It's a nice thing to have under many setups but certainly not something indispensable. In respect to moving - I suggest buffing Stature of Liberty instead and making Democracy cheaper. Combined with powerful Emancipation, it can make Democracy worth researching.
Btw, another thing I would like to try is moving coal plants from Assembly Line to Electricity to space out Industrialization between two tech paths. But this is a hard suggestion to test for obvious reasons