RtR mod 4.1.0.11 Download Thread

[Krill]

Been thinking about IND a bit. Mulled it over, but I think there might be a potential solution that doesn't require a significant number or type of change to make IND viable for both random and snake pick methods.



Essentially, the group RB opinion on IND in base BtS is that unless you get one of Henge, Oracle, GLH or Mids, it wasn't worth the pick. I don't think that view changed significantly in RtR, but I don't think it's quite the same.



Another view on IND is that in a snake pick, whomever is top of the pick order has the advantage of last picking IND to get an advantage over all the other players to potentially grab one of these wonders; the other side of the coin is that in random picks, a bunch of players get IND (PB13?) and then someone, or even several players, end up losing out on the wonders.



I don't think the first point is entirely fair, because players at the top of the list have the same advantage with picking for Myst and a clean shot at a religion, and this is balanced against the perfect synergy at the bottom of the pick order. The second point is a reason why the general level of the trait can be accepted as needing a buff, but then it can push IND into a very strong position if it locks out a major wonder AND gives other solid bonuses.



To go back to the second sentence...in RTR, I don't think that any of the wonders are that important, with the exception of Mids. Picking IND to get the other 3 wonders isn't gamebreaking, but for Mids it really can be. But it is possible, trivial in fact, to remove the IND bonus from Mids. It's a single line of XML (OK, 4 lines), that sets PRODUCTIONTRAIT=-50, to cancel out the innate IND production bonus on wonders, that applies just to Mids. All others, national, world wonders and projects, are unaffected by this sort of change.



If this was implemented, it means we can then buff IND in general to a playable level. Building production bonuses, decreased city and/or civic maintenance, happiness on buildings (like the old Charismatic). So here is my suggestion for a new IND for a test game:

IND: +50% wonder production. Does not apply to Pyramids. +100% production of Forge. -15% city maintenance, -15% civic maintenance

This is straightforward, easy to understand, and still in line with what currently exists without really affecting or interacting with other traits. I think this sort of change could be implemented into the next test game, but it's actually so trivial I can implement it right now if people think it is worth putting in.

[Charriu]

Good point about the mids. But I have to say this would be the 4th trait to get a maintenance bonus in some way. Agg, Imp and Org being the others)
This feels very boring in my opinion. Some more building production bonuses would be more fitting. Or a hammer yield bonus. Or even a trade bonus although that would be better for Financial. Maybe there is a way to restrict the hammer bonus in a similar way like with the river/Financially thing.

EDIT: By the way. I have to look it up how you did that?

[Krill]

I didn't do the Financial bit, that was T-Hawk. I'd asked him.

Part of the issue for IND will be that the value of the +50% wonder production is a bit random, even if played well. To counter balance that, IND would really benefit from an always on bonus, that is present whatever you do. Shouldn't be a big part of the trait, but it would help to keep it balanced.

That doesn't mean that it needs both of the city and civic maintenance reductions, or even that it needs one of them. I do think there aren't any other options as good as a civic cost reduction though. Realistically, I see -20% civic cost, the forge bonus and the wonder production bonus as being enough for the core of the trait, and then it probably needs one or two extra little things that would bring it in range of ORG.

[Charriu]

I didn't do the Financial bit, that was T-Hawk. I'd asked him.

Ah then it's most likely done in the DLL. I have a look at it tonight. Maybe I can present you with some more "always on" bonuses other than maintenance reduction.

[mackoti]

So byzantium is the worst civ clearly. At least gave to the horses combat  1not 3 useles first strike. Who wants to play byzantium for what?

[Charriu]

Also with the changes to India, there would be the option to give Industrious the fast workers from India (not the actual unit, just the mobility promotion for workers)
But I can certainly understand if this change would be too strong for Ind or would devalue Exp.

[Krill]

So byzantium is the worst civ clearly. At least gave to the horses combat  1not 3 useles first strike. Who wants to play byzantium for what?

I'm pretty sure that even giving Cataphracts C1 doesn't make players want to pick them even if it makes the base unit stronger.

Knights just aren't a good unit to try and make interesting without blowing up the power level too much.

[Krill]

Also with the changes to India, there would be the option to give Industrious the fast workers from India (not the actual unit, just the mobility promotion for workers)
But I can certainly understand if this change would be too strong for Ind or would devalue Exp.

Truth be told I have no idea how you would value that, but I suspect it might be a little bit broken on occasion.

[mackoti]

So byzantium is the worst civ clearly. At least gave to the horses combat  1not 3 useles first strike. Who wants to play byzantium for what?

I'm pretty sure that even giving Cataphracts C1 doesn't make players want to pick them even if it makes the base unit stronger.

Knights just aren't a good unit to try and make interesting without blowing up the power level too much.

I know i would pick them becasue with combat 1 i would have loads of options otherwise is   just a bad civ...,practicaly no UU.Compare that with the supergranadier from germany... ,Oho and i remebered now the game with seven were i had this kind of greens...

[Krill]

Yeah...giving you knights with free C1 is a my number 1 reason for not doing it.

Probably better to build a new UU.