[SPOILERS] Charriu, chumchu, and Magic Science in Pitboss 45

[Magic Science]

Well about the map settings. Krill had also a landlocked start in PB42 and naval warfare was certainly very important there. So I wouldn't worry too much about that. I doubt that Commodore would role a pangea like map, which certainly is not "A map along the lines of the maps used in 41 and 42 seems good".

Thanks for being the voice of reason, Charriu. You’re right, I shouldn’t be so worried about this. I can’t help it, though. I was ready for the game to start so I could obsess over clock and dagger (the newer, cooler, STEAMPUNK version of cloak and dagger), scouting, and sandboxing a month ago. Since it still hasn’t started, all I have to obsess over is the snakepick and the starting screenshot, so I blow up little setbacks out of proportion. Really, the fact that the map probably wasn’t made with the exact settings I thought it would be made with isn’t that big of a deal. It just means that we can’t be as sure of what the map will look like, but isn’t that the point of having a random map anyway? And Big and Smalls are always unpredictable, even when you do know the settings, that isn’t anything new.

[chumchu]

My guesses:

It does look like we are in the middle of a continent size piece of land. That does probably mean it is not snaky continents as on a small map we should probably be closer to the ocean. With an inland start we should probably be on the big part of the big and small. That means land neighbors. This means that land warfare will be important first to secure our continent and naval warfare later on. This is by no mean certain but I think it is the most likely scenario which is why I think that we should aim for a civ/leader pair that works for land map. Having something like CHA that gives an edge in naval warfare is icing on the cake.

[chumchu]

I have been doing some test runs on Normal Continents Normal Islands 6 players and when you start inland like we do it is most often in the middle of the big continent with multiple neighbors on land.

In those games vs. the AI whipping out jaguars every other turn was brutal =) Players are a tougher nut to crack though ; )

[Charriu]

So it looks like we are all on the same page with Charismatic, I guess. So I was looking at the other four preferred traits and their synergy with CHA.

1. AGG: This will give us more choices in promotions as well as faster build barracks and stable for even more exp.
   
2. PRO: Similar to AGG we have more choices in promotion, but more important we can get those important granaries up faster for the whip.
   
3. CRE: Here we have the combined build bonus for libraries and a very minor culture victory combination in the late game via Broadcast Tower and the CRE culture buildings
   
4. IMP: We could settle a general for more exp, but that's that in terms of synergy.
   

I think it comes down to what you, Magic, value more Go down the full military path with AGG/CHA or the early economic path with PRO/CHA. Personally I think CRE could still be interesting. IMP is no longer that interesting for me.

[Charriu]

So Kublai (CHA/CRE) it is and naufragar already took Japan, which we most likely would not have picked for it's starting techs. So far everything looks good. To recap what you want from civs that would be the following, right:

• At least one of these Agriculture, Mining, Hunting. Preferably The Wheel if not two of the former.
  
• Some kind of early Military Advantage (Don't know if CHA is enough for you in this regard, I doubt it)
  
• Some civ that has been changed in this version of RtR
  

For me the biggest question is the last point. How much of a change would suffice this point. Must it be a radical change like with India (new UU and new UB) or are you satisfied with smaller changes like with Arabia (just march on the UU)?

[chumchu]

CHA is mostly a midgame and lategame military advantage.

It would be nice if the civ works well with CHA/CRE.

Best fit:

Maya: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Colosseum replacement: Ball Court. +4 Happiness. UU: Spear replacement. Holkan. Strength 5.
[i]That is also a lot of happiness for our cities and cheap with CHA. MYS though.[/i]

Mongolia: Hunting/The Wheel. UB: Stables replacement: Ger. +1 culture, +4XP to mounted units, requires Archery, +100% production with horse, no trait production modifier. UU: Horse Archer replacement. Keshik. +1 free strike. Ignores terrain movement costs.
Bit of an antisynergy with CRE. 

Korea: Agriculture/Mining. UB: University replacement. Seowan: +40% research, cost 150. UU: Catapult replacement. Hwacha. +50% against Melee units. Can kill.
No real synergy but good techs.

Babylon: Agriculture/The Wheel. UB:  Granary replacement: Garden. Requires Agriculture, cost 45, +1 health, no bonus production from trait. UU: Archer replacement. +50% against melee,  no free strike, starts with Drill 1 and 2.
Slightly boring


Does not synergise with our leader:
Native America: Hunting/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Totem Pole. +3XP to Archery units. UU: scout replacement. Tracker. Starts with Woodsman 3, can create Totem Pole.
Centered on monuments

Persia: Hunting/Agriculture. UB: Market replacement: Satrap Court. -25% city maintenance. UU: Chariot replacement. Immortal. +10% withdraw. 1 Free strike. Starts with March.
Markets are expensive without EXP

India: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Castle replacement: Kila. +2 trade routes. UU: Pike replacement. Urukku Pikeman. Strength 8.
Like a slightly worse HRE

Khmer: Mining/Hunting. UB: Aqueduct replacement: Baray. +1 food, +1 culture, +1 Artist slot. Cost 80. UU: War Elephant replacement. Ballistaphant (I don't know the actual name). Targets mounted first outside of cities. Can construct baray.
Barays are expensive without EXP and elephants are not guaranteed.

Aztecs: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Court house replacement: Sacrificial Alter. 50% anger duration after sacrificing population, requires Priesthood, cost 90. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Woodsman 2.
Bit of an antisynergy with CRE and mysticism. CHA + altars is good though.


Not changed that much:

Holy Roman Empire: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Courthouse replacement: Rathaus. -75% city maintenance. UU: Longbow replacement. Landskneckt. +50% against Mounted units.
Slightly boring


Mali: The Wheel/Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Mint. +10% gold, +10% beakers. UU: Archer replacement. Skirmisher. Strength 4, -40% against archers.
Good techs and useful early unit

Arabia: Mysticism/Agriculture. UB: Library replacement: Madrassa. 2 Priest slots, 4 culture, cost 70. UU: Knight replacement: Camel Archer. starts with March. Does not require Horse.
Works well with leader. MYS

No early military bonus:
Germany: Hunting/Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Werkstatt. -25% city maintenance. UU: Grenadier replacement. Strosstrupper. Strength 14.

[Magic Science]

Charriu: I like your summary of what conditions we want our civilization to fulfill.

I agree with chumchu that charismatic should not be considered an early game military advantage. Creative is, since expanded culture grants improved vision and tile defense, but those advantages are not powerful enough to make me not want another early military advantage of some kind from our civilization.

For me the biggest question is the last point. How much of a change would suffice this point. Must it be a radical change like with India (new UU and new UB) or are you satisfied with smaller changes like with Arabia (just march on the UU)?

Good question. All other things being equal, I would prefer more change to less change, but I can accept playing something like Arabia, which has not been altered very much, too. After all, every civilization other than Incaland is new to me.

Arabia is still undesirable for other reasons, though. It has suboptimal starting technologies, but the real problem is its unique building. Most of the power of the Arabian civilization lies in its ability to easily and quickly produce great prophets with madrassas, and that is not very useful for us as Kublai Khan. We already have culture and happiness from him; a widespread, self-founded religion is not needed. Egypt has been taken off my list of potential civilizations as well for the same reason.

Re: Mongolia, Native America, Khmer
I do not think that it is a good idea to choose any civilization that gets a significant amount of its utility from its ability to produce culture. Creative already takes care of that for us both when cities are first founded and when cities end up in culture wars later. Even if the rest of the characteristics of such a civilization are good, I think we can do better by picking something that lacks redundant overlap with our traits.

(Note: War elephants and their replacements now require iron, Construction, Horseback Riding, and Iron Working, not ivory and Construction, so everyone except superdeath should be guaranteed access to them)

The above should not be taken to mean that we should discard all civilizations with culture-producing unique buildings, though. For example, Hunting/Mining Ethiopia remains one of my top options for us despite the stele being a monument replacement. This is because taking advantage of the stele does not require building it in very many cities, which would work against creative by wasting the early cultural building hammer saving part of the trait. To use the stele, we just need to build it in one city that can work a merchant specialist for an extended period and one city that can build some units. The same city might even do both functions, and 30 or 60 hammers that would not be spent by a non-Ethiopian creative civilization are not a lot. Ethiopia does lack an early military bonus, but a merchant to bulb Currency or Alphabet to pull us out of the economic hole we will probably end up in might be valuable enough to make up for it.

Babylon is my favorite for what I think are obvious reasons. It is basically half-Pro. The earlier unlock of granaries gardens is the most interesting thing, though I am uncertain how powerful it is. Pottery remains too important of a technology to be put off for long, so the window of time when you want to build granaries gardens but don’t have Pottery might be a small one. Still, I think the other characteristics will be enough to make Babylon good even in the unlikely case that unlocking gardens at Agriculture turns out to be mostly superfluous.

chumchu’s favorites, the Aztecs, are under consideration for reasons discussed in previous posts.

In conclusion: Babylon. Ethiopia. Aztecs. I am still thinking about others, but those are the main three.

[Charriu]

I kind of have to disagree on Babylon and Ethiopia for one reason. We have a combined library bonus of 70%. I could see us teching to writing rather fast and build an early library for an early Great Scientist. Therefore the advantage of the garden is non existent and generating a GMerchant via Stele is also somewhat unlikely. In addition Ethiopia does not have an early military advantage. 

In about 2 hours I have some more time to write down my thoughts about civs.

[chumchu]

What about Korea then? I think that the new hwachas will be quite strong if massed. Especially if we get some spears or even better elephants to cover them.we want to get to construction a bit earlier due to cha.

[Krill]

Korea was taken by Superdeath.