Yeah, Sumeria got buffed...but it just brings things earlier. Tech cost scaling helps to limit the value in this. Then the vulture got this micro buff. Maybe it needs nudging back down but I don't think it's broken; more likely other civs need buffing towards that level.
I can see that as a first pick. I can also see Babylon (double grain start and can get a granary down before T20 and then not slavery around the same time) or Inca as first picks, because of the flexibility on the leader options.
I somewhat disagree with your lowering of value of the traits and bonuses that are focused towards hitting the vertical and horizontal expansion caps, at least on a unknown map. Though, I do think that you are very much correct to look at the traits that way as opposed to early game/late game, and I do like how the mod has attempted to balance that way - ex. Expansive weaker overall, but getting half price markets (and grocers).
There is still a ton of value in 1) getting to every point prior to the caps earlier, 2) ensuring that research is the limiting factor, as opposed to either research or production, and 3) playing against the possibility of the actual horizontal expansion cap not being what your economy can support, but instead how well you can grab land contested by one or more nearby neighbors.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
I need to be clear: looking at the traits from a different perspective does not mean that the traits have any different value. It is done to understand what the weakness are and where to focus ones available resources.
It is simply another model of understanding, and all models lie. But some models are useful.
(September 9th, 2019, 02:43)GermanJoey Wrote: Looking at the changelog more. See what you mean about the Zulu... good nerf.
Zulu are another one of those civs that gives decent flexibility. I don't know if I'd want to pick them myself, OTOH, if I had picked a leader with IMP, or PRO and I was willing to commit with using the tech cost decrease to push IW up. On that note, the tech cost scaling basically means that a player gets one Classical era tech for free; in a previous mod game a player is finishing up on the ancient era techs, in this mod version they would be finishing IW, or HBR, Math or Alphabet. Maybe MC but that would be a bit more expensive.
What this means is, in my understanding, is that the ancient era civs that give that earlier bonus, are going to be less valuable in this mod version than previous versions. Which is one of the reasons I'm not certain Sumeria now is actually any better than than old Sumeria. New Zulu is a nerf for AGG leaders, but if we could grab a CHM leader then Zulu work just as a method of helping to alleviate the horizontal expansion limit. But I wouldn't want to grab Zulu early.
Quote:Mongolia seems very strong. Cha Mongolia gets C2 Chariots at Archery + Animal Husbandry? 4.8str, that's about as good as a War Chariot. Also, Cha Mongols can get 3-Promo Elephants at Construction? That seems very good... vanilla elephants were what, 9.6str at C2, these Mongoloid ones are 9.1str, although they have the option to be 8.4str and take Shock. That actually gets odds on a C1 spear, except when attacking into a hill/fortify bonus. Hell, they could even take amphib. Most importantly, there doesn't seem to be any counter whatsoever to Mongolian catapults except for getting Construction first and building a huge counter-stack of catapults and, I don't know, swords I guess. Does this herlad the return of the elephult rush? Although elephants are no guarentee, my guess is that the Mongols will be one of the first picks.
War Elephants need Construction, HBR, IW and Iron, so they are not rushable IMO. Crossbows are a good comparison, because they need Construction and Machinery and iron, but not IW or HBR and come with innate collateral in this mod version. Not great collateral, mind, but a bit. The promotion aspects of Mongolia are no different to before, and I will never value the UU because if I can't achieve a HA rush with the base unit the Keshik isn't going to achieve it either. But lower down the pick order I'd have little problem with keeping Mongolia as an option for a CHM leader. Sentry chariots are my love, but I reckon I would rather have Ikhanda than Gers on a Big and Small map.
Quote:Byzantium seems pretty neat too. +2 Happy basically for free in every city, and the Counterweight Treb seems like a medieval cannon? Is it actually any good?
I am basing this off the combat calculator, but I think the CWT is more cost effective at breaking anything and everything compared to cats. Ancient era junk is no obstacle, whereas cats would die. They can get odds on all the classical era units after a sacrifice or two because none of those units get defensive bonuses except the sword. Medieval units start to be more of a problem but CWT handle them better than cats do. Then there is the point that you don't need to build cats for anything if you have the CWT. And more efficient use of transport slots in boats.
It is not Skirmisher level power, or Gallic soldier level fun, but I wouldn't complain about it.
So I think the UU is sound if uninteresting. But it is the UB that makes me want them as a backup to happiness issues. Overall they are boring, but if a player really wants to push the economic angle then I know I could find a lot of fun with them.
Quote:America seems quite pickable too. Great synergy with the UU and UB now; you can draft G2 Minutemen with just an Armory!
America and Greece are very similar now, they do the same thing with gunpowder units. There are no economic levers to either so I think they are risky to pick though. Ragnar of America, Nappy of Greece feel pickable, but I doubt I would dare to pick Boudicca of America or Greece. Because when I pick something like Boudicca, I want a Civ that supports the leaders weaknesses, rather than giving me something I already have.
The naval changes aren't that important to discuss now. The only points are that CHM is not as strong as it used to be, infrastructure matters but ORG saves 30 hammers, EXP saves 40, IMP saves 60 and AGG saves 60, so traits don't really matter. CHM makes it much, much easier to hit a promotion level so theoretically CHM lowers the hammer cost and has that advantage, but, hey, not enough to make CHM a mandatory trait, or uncounterable if we don't have it.
Moai is the only exception. 4XP on boats and, as you want a lighthouse anyway, that's 4 move galleys for anyone. That helps with exploration, and we have no map trading. So an early Moai is worth considering, even if it has very limited economic output. I have constantly held that Moai needs to be somewhere between 10-12 water tiles, but now it has an XP element it makes sense to drop it into a more land production focused city. In this sense, IND does get a small buff, and there is something else to dump hammers into. But none of this affects how I would pick leaders and civs.
The change to Emancipation is one thing, but it's actually the change around Caste and Serfdom that will have the more immediate impact.
Now that Serfdom also gives unlimited specialists, there is freedom to go for Feudalism over Code of Laws. Except Courthouses and horizontal expansion limits still exist, so tech path will never be obvious at this point.
It's the golden ages that get me. First GA into Caste or Serfdom. Second GA into mercantilism. At some point maybe drop into Emancipation. Third GA into final civics and potentially out of Emancipation. But if you don't go into Caste then the whole workshop economy idea breaks down unless you push to Engineering. So where do you get the hammers from? If you don't go Caste, it pushes a player towards Machinery. So it brings in the idea of swapping into Caste first and then into Serfdom later, but to do that lowers the value of the worker buff.
I don't know what is going to happen with this Serfdom change, especially as Monarchy is always a dull tech that no one wants but most people research because they have to. But the change to Environmentalism at Chemistry sits on top of all these and gives us a way to keep the population happy from a post Emancipation cottage pop explosion. So maybe Serfdom and Caste will only be temporary? Maybe the health from Environmentalism gives a State Property powered push to ignore health buildings, industrialize and run someone over with tanks.
And Emancipation...it takes 35 turns to fully grow a cottage, so for every fully grown town you have when you drop into Emancipation, you can grow 1 pop. So we also have a route to build up infrastructure in cities and later on grow cottages, but also to make our good cottage cities humongous. And the Ren era tech costs are much lower with the tech cost scaling effects.
Whatever. The point is, Feudalism might get bumped up slightly. SPI might have another column to work with. But I have no idea how to value late game economic buffs from traits. How valuable are FIN and ORG going to be? I don't just don't know how to value them at that stage of the game: FIN might want to use Emancipation and have hybrid cities that use the towns as a food source, rather than pure cottage spam.
I don't know. But it does invalidate Vassalage as an option so I would then be looking back at the value of CHM.
Maybe Mansa with a fast starting civ, or Arabia, is a good option after all?
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