[SPOILERS]PB46: (In Search of) Fine Foreign Dining, by Hannibal of England

[The Black Sword]

FWIW, if I had realised the start did not have at least a 1/2 tile in the first ring I would have moved forests around to give it one. So that's on me, sorry about that.

I've been playing out various people's starts btw and I think there's a fair number of variations to find the best one. Theoretically demographics are functions of land, assuming everyone plays perfectly, but I don't think we as a community are that good.

[Krill]

FWIW, if I had realised the start did not have at least a 1/2 tile in the first ring I would have moved forests around to give it one. So that's on me, sorry about that.

Still a smaller mistake than forgetting Sevens copper in PB20

I've been playing out various people's starts btw and I think there's a fair number of variations to find the best one. Theoretically demographics are functions of land, assuming everyone plays perfectly, but I don't think we as a community are that good.

I think there are certain points here: I have incomplete information, so I am best off assuming other players are playing perfectly: even if some players are making mistakes, the leader in demographics is likely to be playing a perfect game up to this point. The community may not be at that level, but OH, Rusten and Hitru all are. You lurkers have more yet still incomplete information regarding players in-game positions but if you have the map then I don't see why it is not possible to figure out an ideal first 50 or so turns. Obviously can't account for barbs or other player interactions but up the this point there should not be any appreciable effect.

More importantly, with such a start as this one, with the...limited food resources, I really don't see where the alternative options are. That is why we have previously played higher food maps. A start such as this should be, well, solvable. I do not intend to claim that all the starts in this game are solvable though, not if there are higher food starts that could work with different leaders and civs.

[Krill]

FWIW, if I had realised the start did not have at least a 1/2 tile in the first ring I would have moved forests around to give it one. So that's on me, sorry about that.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but when I've been running the numbers, there isn't any real difference between having a 1/2 tile always available, and swapping from a 2/1 onto a 1/2 tile on border pop if you build a work boat, but there is a difference for a 0/3 tile always present. My basic understanding is that it is because one accumulates food in a food box that has no pay off until growth to size 2, so the partial yield is irrelevant for a good while. But as you have no additional improved tile to work the additional yield from being size 2 is essentially irrelevant: this is why I had to go BW first and slave to make that accrued food work for me.

Which begs the question: Why would you have jigged things around to enable a 1/2 tile and not a 0/3 tile?

Also: I want a turn to play. Don't these people know that not playing a turn is like withholding crack from an addict?

[GermanJoey]

FWIW, if I had realised the start did not have at least a 1/2 tile in the first ring I would have moved forests around to give it one. So that's on me, sorry about that.

I've been playing out various people's starts btw and I think there's a fair number of variations to find the best one. Theoretically demographics are functions of land, assuming everyone plays perfectly, but I don't think we as a community are that good.

[GermanJoey]

FWIW, if I had realised the start did not have at least a 1/2 tile in the first ring I would have moved forests around to give it one. So that's on me, sorry about that.

Still a smaller mistake than forgetting Sevens copper in PB20

Or yours in PB27...

[GermanJoey]

Turn 051

I was rushing the last turn report, so I don't think I explained myself particularly well. Then again, I've been trying to write a short passage that explains the point I'm trying to make succinctly for the past week and failing, so being rushed isn't the true reason I was fucking up.

Basically: the demographics are only a measure of whom has the best land, and has, IMO, very little to do with skill.

There is no way for me to have any idea of who is playing well or not. I can only judge my play with hindsight. I think I've played the map as well as could be: so far, whilst I've made mistakes, it has only been in unit positioning and has not been measurable in output so far.

The reason I think this is because, well, the map is the map. There is no reason complaining about anything, just focus on the map and how to overcome whatever obstacles it throws up. There are no reasonable complaints that could be made, with one exception.

I think it's just not as applicable to compare to players in the world on a big map like this because every player will end up with different challenges. Like, on one hand, our start is insanely slow. On the other hand, it looks like we have a ridiculous amount of land to expand into, and, IIRC, from the number of tiles per player here, I'm guessing we're above average in this regard. So, we might be slower early, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to expand via settlers than expand via knights. Likewise, although demographic stats at T50 will not correlate with player skill, I think it's much more likely that demographics at T115 will, at least more-so. IMHO, much like lusher maps are more naturally self-balancing than sparser maps, bigger maps are more naturally self-balancing than tighter maps. (the tradeoff, of course, is that 9 months from now you'll be needing to spend two hours to play every turn).

The one place where huge map self-balancing doesn't apply so much is with stuff like wonders, religions, and Liberalism. There, the players with faster starts have an advantage that we can't really match.

[The Black Sword]

Which begs the question: Why would you have jigged things around to enable a 1/2 tile and not a 0/3 tile?

I think building a WB off 3hpt feels miserable and I wouldn't deliberately give that to someone as their best option. Even if it is only 1t earlier WB.

I also feel like it's about equivalent in power to most land food starts. A 0/3 tile is certainly a bit of a power bump(2t earlier WB) and then the land food needs to be something like river corn to compete. IIRC I tried to give each start a points score and require they fell within a certain range. I would have overvalued yours slightly by assuming you had the 1/2 tile.

[Krill]

Turn 052




I might be able to squeeze another warrior out of the capital if we have to keep a warrior in WT, without it affecting the copper city settling on T61. Can't see the barb warrior, but I'll find it next turn.





OH/Hitru settled their fourth city, so at this point I'm just going to stop counting. I beat TBW to a third city though.

[Krill]

Turn 051

I was rushing the last turn report, so I don't think I explained myself particularly well. Then again, I've been trying to write a short passage that explains the point I'm trying to make succinctly for the past week and failing, so being rushed isn't the true reason I was fucking up.

Basically: the demographics are only a measure of whom has the best land, and has, IMO, very little to do with skill.

There is no way for me to have any idea of who is playing well or not. I can only judge my play with hindsight. I think I've played the map as well as could be: so far, whilst I've made mistakes, it has only been in unit positioning and has not been measurable in output so far.

The reason I think this is because, well, the map is the map. There is no reason complaining about anything, just focus on the map and how to overcome whatever obstacles it throws up. There are no reasonable complaints that could be made, with one exception.

I think it's just not as applicable to compare to players in the world on a big map like this because every player will end up with different challenges. Like, on one hand, our start is insanely slow. On the other hand, it looks like we have a ridiculous amount of land to expand into, and, IIRC, from the number of tiles per player here, I'm guessing we're above average in this regard. So, we might be slower early, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to expand via settlers than expand via knights. Likewise, although demographic stats at T50 will not correlate with player skill, I think it's much more likely that demographics at T115 will, at least more-so. IMHO, much like lusher maps are more naturally self-balancing than sparser maps, bigger maps are more naturally self-balancing than tighter maps. (the tradeoff, of course, is that 9 months from now you'll be needing to spend two hours to play every turn).

The one place where huge map self-balancing doesn't apply so much is with stuff like wonders, religions, and Liberalism. There, the players with faster starts have an advantage that we can't really match.

Good job we picked Hannibal of England then...

BTW Joey, you got any thoughts on great people usage? I keep on coming back to double bulbing Astro just because it's the highest beaker output and should buy us the time to grab Banking afterwards.

[Krill]

Which begs the question: Why would you have jigged things around to enable a 1/2 tile and not a 0/3 tile?

I think building a WB off 3hpt feels miserable and I wouldn't deliberately give that to someone as their best option. Even if it is only 1t earlier WB.

I also feel like it's about equivalent in power to most land food starts. A 0/3 tile is certainly a bit of a power bump(2t earlier WB) and then the land food needs to be something like river corn to compete. IIRC I tried to give each start a points score and require they fell within a certain range. I would have overvalued yours slightly by assuming you had the 1/2 tile.

Why would a coastal fish tile be most closely compared to a river corn when a grass river sheep is the exact same yield? And in that comparison, unless the fish is hooked 15 turns before the sheep, the sheep is better, right? So the value of a 0/3 tile is inherent in the resources a start possesses and is not valuable in itself. In fact, a 0/3 tile is almost always a plains hill which is lower in value than a grassland or grass hill tile. Whereas a forest silk tile may be more valuable because that is a bunch of commerce you get compared to a bare forest of otherwise we equal value.