[SPOILERS]PB46: (In Search of) Fine Foreign Dining, by Hannibal of England

[Krill]

That's a massive plus. When I talk about the hammers needed in real units, it's easy to forget that those hammers can't be generated before copper is hooked: all of those units would have had to have been built after T64 or so, whereas all of the warriors and scouts save Yeld were built before, and I'd still need to build warriors to deal with the barbs before this point. It's not like the hammer cost of the warriors could just be ignored.

If horse had been at the WT location, I could have gotten horse hooked by T45 and there would be a real argument between the two approaches: get chariots early, try and use them to unlock HE and batter anything approaching, the right units to deal with TBW if he tried to axe rush (that's not a real threat, but after the free Shock event the only way to deal with axes would be chariots or HA).

I would likely have still used the barb sentry net in the south, the area around Aldeburgh, and then used chariots to clean up everywhere else. I'm fairly sure that would have been the cheaper approach in terms of gold (as there are only 3 units needed to barb bust the south before Aldeburgh was founded). Unfortunately, that was not to be and I've had to run this behemoth of a sentry net, with the concommitant drag on research.

[Krill]

Turn 084

The new world map is repeated below.

Solid white line: current area barb-busted by my units (yes, there is a barb warrior right in the middle of them).

Dotted white line around warrior three: area barb-busted by that single unit.

Red dashed line: area fog busted by territory once I settle thre three new cities over the next 7 turns (and I have a spare settler).




The archer from Wetheral will be heading straight down to the City10 location. I'm going to use warrior8, put him on the horse to barb bust the incense row of tiles, which releases warrior3 to move back onto the plains hill forest and ensures that there are no barbs to screw with the silver city plant. This could happen next turn, but the safest time to do it is T86 as Yeld moves onto the plains hill on T85, and then on T86 Yeld can move 1SE to check there are no barbs adjacent to the tile I will move warrior3.

When borders pop at Aldeburgh eot85, warrior4 will move off the copper, 1W onto the forest. So T86 will be another step towards tightening the barb busting net.

The barb warrior is essentially irrelevant, it will move either 1N or 1NE on T85, I move Axe1 1W, move a worker7 underneath him, and place the chariot 3W of SCarrow. T86, I move worker7 onto the tile1S of the rice, and the chariot can cover whilst the axe beats up the barb if he hasn't suicided.





So another change of plan. I'm going to double whip a library T86, and then on T87 work the single grass river hill and everything else goes into coast and growth. This still completes a work boat eot88. I'm fairly sure that this gives me more beakers than just working the coast in the number of turns up to Currency being discovered. It does mean working this same configuration on T85 though, but one whip happy wears off on T89, and the silver happy is hooked on T94. I think it grows@6 eot87, @7 eot89 if I work max food, but then @8 would occur eot92, so there is enough leeway with working hill mines to delay growth slightly and match it up with happiness which still working the coast.





Part of the benefit of the library whip in the capital is that I can steal a single hill mine here. This allows more overflow so library eot89, and border pop eot94. It helps with the barb busting, and there is an additional forest to chop on T95. Not really major, but hey.











Someone has just signed OB. I should have 265 gold by T87, but then I would be able to make around 70 base bpt. Currency would take until around T93. I might just have enough gold...

[Krill]

Turn 085

Nothing much to say, other than I hate night shifts.




Next turn if the barb warrior crosses the river onto a flood plain the chariot gets 99.1% odds of victory and 2XP, so that would be the obvious battle, but if it moves onto a forest then I get the option to attack with Axe2. I don't strictly speaking need the chariot to cover worker7 moving across the river unless there is a barb just out of vision range.

I'm still deliberating if where to send the Owlthorpe settler. I don't feel comfortable pushing really far forward with it, and I'm contemplating settling the pigs desert on T91. Double chop a library in the clam/rice city, and chop the granary in pigs with the two overlapping forests. It seems so much smarter, but I just don't feel comfortable with dotmapping that isthmus area. That's why I'm trying to push Cavendish as far forward as I can. I also need to work out when I could get another settler out, probably from Scarrow Hill via chops, but that is a job for when I'm not working nights.





I hate unit costs.





Making a guess: 8th in GNP on T87 with a library in the capital and both Westminster and WT working max coasts at 100% research.

[Krill]

Can someone do me a favour, log in, and unload Gilbert from the galley please? Unload him onto the grassland please.

Password is hug.

[Hollybombay]

Looks like you logged in, do you still need someone to unload Gilbert?

[Krill]

It's fine, I got home and did it.

[Krill]

Turn 08

Ugh. Dotmapping whilst sleep deprived is not fun at all. Thankfully I was able to play T86 last night between night shifts (God I hate night shifts). I was a really easy turn to play badly, but I've made my bed so I'll lie in it.





The barb warrior actually retreated into the fog. The biggest problem I've got is I still don't know where I want to found the "Front" city around the plains horse, so all the worker micro I've come up with is essentially sub par because I don't know how I need to road which is fucking up all the other needs. I still don't know if I want to settle Lucker furst, but at this point I've made it impossible to chop both forests into Seahouses on T88, and it's a nightmare to get workers onto the pig without wasting worker turns.

As you can also see, I've tightened the barb busting net up considerably. I'm basically moving the warrior near Seahouses 1 tile south, and replacing tiles that Yeld is moving away fom as I also move Yeld one tile south per turn. Once Yeld is on the wheat tile in the far south, I think I can have the entire south fogbusted, so T90 is the current aim for that. It's a minor goal.

Part of the issue I have is I'm just assuming the little spur of tundra south of the horse isthmus is a dead end, but I have no proof of this. I think I would be well served by also sending Cavendish down here: if there are no barbs, I could get Cavendish onto the tile SW of the grass hill on T89. Once I know the position of any seafood in that area, I can be a bit more understanding of where I can place the front city without screwing myself.





Currency is getting pushed further and further back and here is my concern: if I have to go from Curency straight into military techs I'm going to implode the economy. I don't want to be playing this game too aggressive right now: I have too much land to easily exploit, so I really want to be getting people to leave me alone because I'm not worth the hassle right now. That means not settling front cities which are antagonistic, and keeping a semi-reasonable power level. This is a big strategic reason to not try and settle the otherside of that horse isthmus.

[Krill]

Turn 087

I've started writing this turn report as I was reaching teh end of my endurance of staying up after a night shift. Due to that, I'm not sure how much sense this is going to make. I've not finished this turn because I still need to move chariot1, axe1 and two workers, and how I move them depends on the dot map and where I'm sending each settler.

Here is the F2 screen before from settling city8:







Re-ran the numbers. With two workers chopping the plains forest I may as well work the corn for the extra commerce. Granary whipped T93 and regrowth@2 eot95. Maybe library whip T97? That would mean border pop eot102.

And after:




Civic costs went up 3, which makes me think the city is essentially close to cost neutral now and is still necessary for the Currency trade routes, so settling it early doesn't feel like a mistake. Not the "unworkable" fish, there might be more land over the ocean.

And this brings me to the main point for this report. A new world map, included dot map and current barb busted areas.





Where to start...

I've come up with about four separate dot maps, and they all come down to where the front city is located. I've made a dot map with Sneatonthorpe (Such an awesome name) further forward, 2N1W of the horse, 2N1E of the horse in a defensive position, and 1N2E of the horse, and on the horse. Frankly, every single location is flawed on some level.

• 2N1W: very aggressive, invites an attack. Adjacent to a hill on the wrong side, and can be threatened by fast movers that can be positioned to use the river to an opponents advantage. Best used, IMO, if I were trying to get someone to attack me to create an opportunity to then counter invade. It also requires a city 1N2E of horse as a back up to control the isthmus if I were to lose the front city (2W would potentially lose the tile 2N1E and leave me forked, but this is unlikely in a game without a PHI player to artiust bomb and is probably the smarter city location in this scenario, but it would be a bad city that sucks up resources).
  
  
• 2N1E: Best defensive position, but no forests and only a clam as food so it's a poor city. Protected on both diagonals, on a hill, and risks someone planting 1S of cow and threatening the coastal area. This city is at risk of getting pressured culturally and if it were to fall I'd have no back up city that could stop a player reaching core cities because the terrain behind it lacks all food resources.
  
  
• 1N2E: no inner ring food, leaves open the plains hill plant to an opponent who would definitely win a culture war because of the production and food disparity, no back up city. Probably the worst city location option.
  
  
• Horse tile: flatland, coastal so risk of being boated, but perfect protection from land based attack as both diagonals are covered and but there is an option for a minimum distance coastal city for an opponent on the south coast (1S3W of horse). Also leaves open city location 2N of cow which would claim a hill tile and could leave the horse city at risk of being one moved. Poor defensive location. Does have a back up city.
  
  
• 1N of horse: As above, but protects against the one move over the hill, but claims all available resources and has two inner ring forests for immediate library chop (and can work plains horse and outer ring forest for size 1 granary). Has a back up city and acts as a canal. Can be one moved from a city 1S3W of horse.
  
  
• 1NE: As above, but can be one moves from fogand loses back up city.
  
  
• 1NW of horse: As 1N, but can be one moved from a city the other side of the river.
  

The crux of the matter is that if I settle first, I am always going to leave open the opportunity for an opponent to settle to keep open a one move, but I'm unwilling to settle second and lose control of the isthmus. This is just a risk I'll have to take. Once I accept that, the value of a back up city goes through the roof IMO, which eliminates everything east of the horse row of tiles. At some point or another I've felt that 2N1W, 1N or horse itself are all "The best choices" but I don't think that anymore.

The problem I've got is that even now I can't really make a decision as I ought to know the full fog around Skinningrove, and where an opponent would want to settle cities on their side of the isthmus. But I can settle Sneatonthorpe on T92! I just don't have enough time to get that information anymore.

Right now I think 1N is probably the best compromise location, because with two inner ring forests and enough gold on T92, I could divert to grab Masonry to chop walls (stupid idea but I could do it), or grab the library to pop borders and use the peak for almost perfect vision. It also is the perfect location to allow Saltergate to split off food from two different cities without border pops and still has two inner ring forests of it's own. The only other city which could do this is Horse location but then the clam is unclaimable for me and Horse city would be crippled if it gave up the crab when I need it to be a strong city on it's own. So settle Kettleness, chop a library to pop borders, hook the wheat and have Saltergate settled to get a size 1 granary and a later barracks and use it as a unit pump.

I'm not happy with the worker micro: I know how to get Sneatonthorpe settled on T92 with 4 workers present, but this criples Lucker and Seahouses. Because of the river and hills, there is no path to cross easily, and it's not a question of sending workers, doing a bit, then withdrawing: anything sent, stays at Lucker and Sneatonthorpe, and only leaves when it roads out to somewhere new.

I'm going to edit this turn report, because I need new worker micro. I'm almost certain that I need to delay Sneatonthorpe, and use a single worker to road there whilst I throw everything else at Lucker and Seahouses. The risk is that I might lose the isthmus, but I'm sure there is a bettr way to do this.






Workboat completes eot88, and then on T89 I can give up the hill for another coastal tile to grow@7 eot89 32/32. As the silver is hooked T94, that means I want growth@8 eot93, which only requires 4 turns of growth to achieve but working coast means growth occurs in 3 turns. I'm not sure when I would need to finish a work boat for Catfish either (eot98 If get the library as planned, but I'm not sure the library is right), and other than building a workboat I don't quite see what there is to build. Maybe another galley? Even if I went straigt onto a workboat I would finish it too quickly.

Probably ought to just go with the galley: no other city can build it, and I need to send a galley north to scout. I have two workers on the island, and I will want to bring them both back to the mainland after mining the grass hill at Catfish after border pop (the cities can build their own workers in future, or more likely I ship new workers back over). Looking at it, the one worker would come back around T99 so a galley seems reasonable.





That work boat for Catfish could be finished here eot96...I intend to dump the 12 hammers overflow on T89, but without mines the only way to complete it in time would be with overflow form another whip. I'm going to be stuck building a worker for a few turns here anyway though from T91, and then growth@5 eot93 and growth@6 eot95 and finish the worker. I don't thiink I can get the work boat for Catfish from here (so this work boat is probably for the fish tile at Kelling?)





Library eot89. Growth@3 eot90, growth@4 eot92, growth@5 eot95. There's no choice by this point, cottage or die: workers from Scarrow and Wetheral must come here to cottage or research will come grinding to a halt. It needs a new MP from T91, so I intend to bring the warrior that is on the horse back for then, and I need another unit to pick up the barb busting duties. Warrior3 should be able to do this with no additional cost.





This is worker8, which will move to the plains forest labelled T91 and chop. Overflow into a worker, regrow to size 4 and then finish that without whipping eot96. I'll build another archer here for MP duty. Finally growth onto cottages.





Nothing to state here except the worker numbers are wrong, this will be worker10, worker9 is built in Wetheral as Worker8 is chopping a forest. The changes I have to make to the worker micro will affect what I do here.





Sheep is hooked next turn then the workers run to Timble, the silver city. Probably best to fit a minimum of 2 big whips in here as only coast available to work, problem is the only big things to whip are settlers...unless I fit in an early 2 pop whip for max overflow of a worker, and then build the second worker? This is a must IMO, even if I bring back both workers after mining the silver to get some improvements in place.

City micro reposted for ease of access:

T87: W1 move N - pasture. W2 move SW - SW pasture
T88: W1 Pasture/finish. W2 Pasture/finish.
T89: W1 + W2 move NW - N. [Settler from WT moves SW - SW - SW onto same tile]. Work boat complete at Aldeburgh eot.
T90: W1 + W2 move NW - road/finish. Settler moves NW - N. Aldeburgh growth@3, 26/24. Net Crab#2, start light house.
T91: Settle silver city. Steal fish from WT. Build Granary. W1+W2 move N - N.
T92: W1 + W2 mine/cancel. Aldeburgh growth@4 30/26.
T93: W1 + W2 mine/finish. Aldeburgh work coast.
T94: W1 + W2 road/finish. Aldebrugh work grassland, growth@5 32/28
T95: Aldeburgh whip lighthouse, growth@4 26/26.

Growth eot92, The fish will be hooked T93 and granary whipped T94, regrowth@2 eot96, lighthouse whip T103? Then an archer.





I took this at max science, but I think I'm saving gold this turn. I don't see how I can get Currency down to a 6 turn tech. It will be 7 turns, even if the 7 is not at 100% tech. With this in mind, I reckon saving gold whilst I have minim coastal tiles being worked in library cities is better? I dunno, I'll blame sleep deprivation.

[Krill]

Turn 088

I've ended turn, but I did that after a thoughtful post by OH: essentially, I've played the last couple of PB games with the aim of never being the last player to play my turn. Obviously someone has to be last, but the point there is to promote good turn pace and to avoid the Parkin effect of trying to gain an advantage.

Which means, if I take this a step further, that if one is logged in at turn roll, and one can play the turn immediately, then one ought to do so. I accept that double moves are a legitimate in game reason not to, and I also accept that RL will place limits on the ability to play ones turn. OTOH, pitboss games are designed for players who have set play windows and can play a turn a day minimum. So if you miss a single turn window, you should be expected to play catch up in the next window and play turns back to back to keep the game moving IMO. If we didn't expect this, then it would mean regular pauses dragging the game out, and I don't think that is either reasonable, or the community expectation (pauses to maintain turn order excepted).

We have played 88 turns in 77 days, including the general T0 fuck ups and two known city razes. Not shabby for a 16 player game, maybe things could have sped up slightly in the first 50 turns by players playing both before and after work but that's about it.

What am I getting at? Is it worth the community explicitly accepting the idea that the player who rolls the turn should play the next immediately? And empowering lurkers to ask (if they feel the need) if there are issues with not playing? It doesn't take much for a player to post that they think they are in a settler race (and if they think that they can't play the next turn anyway, so this doesn't give additional information to other players.

Anyway, onto the game: Found a barb warrior. It can't mess with settling Timble, but it could mess with with the silver hook up if it does not suicide onto warrior 3. I'm considering moving W3 1S to block the route onto the plains hills, and running the chariot over here. The only way the chariot doesn't attack the warrior on T90 would be if the warrior suicided onto W3 at the start of T90, or it moved onto the desert 1NW of the copper. But if it took that avoidance, it could not interfere with the silver (and teh archer would have 92% odds on offense if I didn't just chase the warrior down anyway with the chariot).





I've also decided to change the settling order. Going to settle Lucker on T91 with the settler out of Owlthorpe.

The worker micro is a bit funky, I'd even go so far as to say it's rough. I've brought back the roading workers to make sure I chop all the forests. Because I've changed the expected city location for the flood plains city, I can chop an extra forest, and it means I will generate 160 hammers between T88 and eot92, perfect for the worker and settler needs.

(Specifically, settling on the eastern desert hill (Hawkeswicke) shares the overlapping grass forest, but picks up the plains forest as it is surrounded on all sides once Seahouses pops borders. That gives the granary, and there are no food resources except the flood plains, so it's only the granary that is critical. Kettlewell, 3S of the desert hill, is the critical city in that area).

Part of the issue I have with the worker micro is that I already committed worker7 to road the stone. I still don't think this is wrong, and one large advantage of settling the front city later is I can use a single worker to road all the way there and save worker turns for hooking the pig, rice and chopping what I need now. I just don't have military in the right location to gaurd the worker. Worker7 finishes the stone road T90, moves T91, then roads the grass hill 1SW on T92-93. The axe can't meet the worker until T93! So the chariot is being pulled in two directions, and it's even filling barb busting duties (filling a hole from pushing Yeld forward due to the barb warrior).

The reality is I'm probably not sending the chariot after the barb warrior. T89 Cavendish will show if there is a barb visible around the horse. If there is not, then I know that Worker7 is safe until T91 when I have to move W7 forward. I could keep Cavendish around, but then I would be delaying the scouting I need to make sure that 1N of hte horse is the right city locaiton for me. I'll try and make the barb warrior take the 0.9% shot against warrior3.

The worker micro I have is as follows:

T87: Worker5, Worker6 move onto roaded grass forest 1S2W of Scarrow and chop/cancel. Worker8 chops.
T88: Worker5 moves E - SE. W6 moves NW - SW - W - SW. W7 road. W8 Chop/finish. W9 (Wetheral) moves W - SW - NW. W10 moves W- SW - chop/finish. Scarrow complete worker11.
T89: W5 chop/cancel. W6 road/cancel. W7 road.W8 move NW. W9 chop/cancel. W10 move NW - SW chop/cancel. W11 move W- SW - NW - chop/cancel. [Axe1 heal.]
T90: W5 chop/cancel. W6 road/cancel. W7 road/finish.W8 chop/cancel. W9 chop/cancel. W10 chop/finish. W11 SW - Chop/finish. Seahouses build library. [Axe1 move SW - SW]
T91: W5 chop/finish. W6 chop/finish. W7 move 1SW, W8 chop/cancel. W9 chop/finish. W10+W11 move W - SW chop/finish. Seahouses finish library. Scarrow finish Worker12. [Axe 1S].
T92: W5,8,9 no longer present: focus on cottageing. W6 farm. W7 road. W10+11 move SW. W12 move W - SW - NW - chop/cancel. [W8 chop/finish. Scarrow finish settler. Axe1 1S]
T93: W6 farm. W7 road/finish. W10+W11 road/finish. W12 SW - W - SW - farm. [Settler W - SW - NW - SW. Axe 1 SW - SW]
T94: W6+W12 farm/finish. W7 move NE - NW - N. W10+11 move SW - SE - SW - SW. [Settler W - SW - SW]
T95: W6 move W. W12 move S. W7 pasture. W10+11 road/finish. [Settler SW - SE - SW - SW]
T96: [Settler SW - Settle]. W6 chop. W12 chop. W7 pasture. W10+11 move to chop or pasture.

So a new problem is that I can start improving the pig on T91...but I lack the workers. I reckon it's actually safer to just retreat worker 7 onto the pig on T91 and get it hooked on T95. On T92 there are 3 workers on the rice, and I can move W12 to put the second chop into the roaded grass forest. The next problem I have is that I want the roads on both hill tiles to the front city in place on T95. I could take two workers from the rice, and this would not even be enough to get the roads in place, but the rice is hooked T94, and the forest chops into Lucker occur T98. That isn't too bad, as the borders pop eot96. I can rig the worker micro somehow around Scarrow to complete the single forest chop into Seahouses T97, which would be enough to complete the granary.

Actually...it's better to not even try and hook the pig: get it hooked T99 and growth occurs T100 with 14 food in the box. If the pig is hooked T95 the granary wouldn't have chance to fill. Use W7 to road the first grass hill, and then two workers to road the second grass hill on T95, and settle on T96. This is probably the most balanced route.

Observations: The Owlthorpe settler probably came too early. Axe1 will be full health, and spear1 will catch up. Could do with an archer but it's flatland, so really don't want an unpromoted archer. I should probably build a barracks or two...





Basic plan: Build granary. Work rice T88-90. Strat Library T90, chopped eot91 111/90, T92 go back to granary 22/60. T91-93 work flood plains. T94 pick up improved rice, eot94 granary 27/60. Growth@2 eot95 23/22. Force a chop T97 to complete granary 66/60, food box 11/24. probably want to whip the work boat T100 and regrow@2, food box 14/24, making 6fpt.

Holding the peak gives me the barb busting vision I've been craving, but long term plans for Seahouses is production city. Unfortunately the resources have conspired to screw the one decent levee city I could have had, I'm laying that one at TBS' door and his horrible random map generating skills

I'm not going to cottage here. Straight farms before watermills depending on future identified needs.





OK, this is where I start sweating. Costs just sky rocketed. I ran the numbers on Currency, and I expect to have Currency at 630/718 at the start of T93, and making close to base 100bpt but with very limited gold reserves, if any. I don't know if I can get Currency eot93, but I should get it eot94 if I don't (I'm going to force it, and just work coast everywhere if I have to, each turn of currency is 22 gold. I worry about the two city settles on T91 breaking everything, but fuck it, I can settle silver city and reconsider settling Lucker on T91: City 8 bumped up city maintenance by 11 gold? Doesn't matter, I still need that silver. Get the front city, then develop. Every city is going to be cramming in lighthouses then markets.

Projected beaker output over next 5 turns:

T87: 84 accrued.
T88: 93, 177 total
T89: 98, 275 total.
T90: 107, 382 total.
T91: 124, 506 total.
T92: 124, 630/718 total.

There are three major demographics I think are worth pointing out: I'm second in land area, and I have stupid amounts of uncontested land to settle. Approval rating is at 65%, so I have a significant happy cap to grow into, unlike most other players, and life expectancy shows I also have the health cap to do so. The GNP is an issue in terms of losing first two bonuses, but repeat: I have Hannibal of England: I am not interested in first to bonuses except by avarice. I need good enough tech to get military techs to defend myself, and good enough MFG to build the units. That MFG is still higher than TBW, as is the crop yield. I am not at immediate threat of extinction, AFAICT, so expand.

And by expand, I mean build cottages, and grow to work them. Save gold after Currency, and prepare for either a Monarchy or CoL push. Guard those borders, and build a functioning economy for once.

[Krill]

Does anyone know what the trade mission formula for a GM is?