Turn played between two nightshifts, so I can't precisely recall what I did or thought during the turn. But then that's why I take screenshots.
Fish! Not a bad city location, definitely a nice little bulwark of the city for airships. Couple of forests and iron suggests that this city is actually worth prioritising.
In international news, this was teh turn before OH researched Guilds as he whipped 18 cities. Elkad played before OH and triggered his GA, revolted into Christianity (which doesn't mean much) as he didn't revolt civics. Good luck dealing with OH Elkad. I don't know how I'd do it at such an economic disparity.
I offered Elkad iron as a gift. Not that it means much but if he is close to pikes or Xbows then maybe, but I doubt it. He doesn't have Feudalism yet (as it does not show as available for him to revolt into Vassalage in teh diplo screen).
A couple of questions: will TBW intervene to try and kick Elkad off our continent? How will Elkad position his units? And is OH even going to attack Elkad or will he instead hit Pinidcator? That's a tough one, it's like being stuck between a cupcake full of razorblades and a snooker table sized chocolate gateaux as a diabetic. Neither choice seems wise even if both look delicious.
I could run north. There is probably someone up there on a similar latitude to OH, but I need circumnavigation more than I need contacts at this point.
Position of 2MNs dead city. 8 tiles from Borsches capital. And minimum distance from Borsches second city.
Scarrow is 8 tiles from my capital. Distances between players in this game seem odd: Sneatonthorpe is 18 tiles from my capital and seems a similar distance from GKC's capital. TBW is 17 tiles away on a straight line. Why were they so close together on a huge map? (Note this is written after playing T129 when I know that 2MNs apital is just SE of Addis).
Scouting strategy: Gilbert is going to run along the coast from Debre Berhan. Stackhouse is going to run along the north coast to chart the way for the galley. The chariot is going to fill in the blanks between the two.
Currently in the process of reconsidering the GA timing as I know that this turn I can hit Machinery in 2 turns at 90%. It might be smarter to delay the GA slightly: I think I can get Guilds eot138 without a GA, the question is could I then trigger the GA T139, finish Banking eot140 and revolt into Merc on T141 to allow the revolt on the last turn of hte GA. Lots of reasons to do this, and a few not to, but more on that at a later time when I'm not sleep deprived, because it is mostly down to tech needs IMO.
One very good reason to do it though: Those extra few turns in the new cities will get me a lot more pop to use the commerce, and I will have the spec slots from Caste to use them (and can either build the library or whip it as the GA ends).
No unit costs! I'll also note here that gpt went up 35 this turn, but that is to do with moving around scientists and swapping Seahouses to coast to grow in preparation of watermills.
If just one person has Guilds, I need 553 base bpt to research it in 3 turns. If 2 people have it, I need 535. Assuming 5 turns of generating 25 base bpt from specialists as well that drops to 511 and 493 respectively. So Guilds in 3 is not just achieveable, I can already achieve it without further growth, given that I am expecting to save gold for 5 turns, and should have over 150 gold in hand eot130 for 900 gold and 300 gpt costs.
...Could I take #1 in crop yield, even temporarily? I have 4 city locations (admittedly only two of them have food, a third has flood plains), but they are waiting until after the GA. I still have 23 food in food resources within current city locations, but they will take a while to work (8 turns in total).
This game is starting to look a lot more competitive than it perhaps has rights to.
Elkad finished Feudalism. Now we wait to see what he chooses to revolt into: does he delay Slavery a bit, or does he go full panic mode? Vassalage is a give, and that means every single city should be building triple promo plus D1, D3 longbows.
Sure, knights ignore first strikes. They also cost twice as much and don't get odds on a CG3 longbow in most circumstances (even without fort, the longbow is at 12 strength, add in fort, hills, culture and it's ridiculous). I hope OH/Hitru run into the same problems I had dealing with them in PB42: the only problem is Elkad lacks construction IIRC so no cats. He needs Construction and Machinery yesterday.
I reckon Elkad would die but at significant cost if they just pile everything on him. We'll see.
What is that tundra doing there? It's also very green compared to the rest of the map. Looks hand built TBH: it's different, and it would fit with the joined landmass hypothesis.
Nothing interesting has happened this turn (so far). Also, whales on coast is weird. That shouldn't happen unless it was placed there as a happy resource from the rule I created in the map generation process. Another player nearby, maybe? Well, relatively nearby?
No comment.
YES! GKC culture will take the tile Cavendish is on and he will drop into my borders next turn.
I've checked, and I need to generate 912 base beakers to finish Machinery. Next turn I can run max tech and generate the required 533 (I can generate over that on max research this turn already). Just seeing if anyone else gets Machinery eot. So I should have around 190 gold saved eot130, plus change into Guilds.
Top power only went up 12k, so the knights will be finishing over the next few turns for OH/Hitru. Unless, and hold onto this thought with trepidation: What if someone else out there has a massive army. Someone like Gav running Police State...
I'm going to be growing until and during the GA, then everything will drop as I whip away population. Another reason I'm considering delaying the GA: I think that I can get to Optics by the end of the GA, and bulb Astro at the height of my pop figures. Given the cost of Astro in the mid 4400s, a double bulb will generate beakers up to 240 odd pop (ie the tech would not be completely finish via a double bulb below this). Even with growth in a GA, I don't think I could eclipse 225 pop by T145 (220 is probably top range achievable, 200 is not unrealistic, 180 is definite if not attacked, currently at around 132 pop).
Elkad might actually get Construction, but I don't know if he will hit machinery in time for collateral Xbows (my god would that be awesome to watch).
I can't even see GA hammers here, so either Elkad reallocates his pop or he whips IMO.
I wish that the diplomacy screen showed the number of cities that a player has, but only reveals their names if you have uncovered them on the map. It would make it so much easier to interpret this graph, but also provides a balance between players having information hidden yet revealable if you invest in scouting (or spies if you can't get OB).
Point to consider: If I am going to invade someone, I need to build units.
To build units, I need the right techs: HBR, Construction, for knights, Xbows and cats. Engineering for Pikes, road movement to get units into the right place (doesn't matter how big your army is if it's on the wrong tile, see OT4E in PB42). And then Aesthetics/Literature and Calendar, Compass into Optics to enable the Astro bulb for galleons. And finally Civil Service into Paper for Privateers as sentries to watch against Rusten.
There is no point revolting into Slavery until I'm in a position to start building these units: it makes sense to delay the GA (from T136 until T139) to make sure I grab the techs I need at the middle and end of the GA, revolt into slavery and then whip. More sense than revolting into slavery and finding I'm 10 turns from finishing Construction because I have to rush Optics. Those extra few turns running Mercantilism are basically the same as getting a free Construction. The cost in civics (delay in HR and Mono) is pretty much nil. And it means I can use a few GA turns to cram down stock exchanges where I need to.
This doesn't mean I'm not going to be building units though: A few cities will be churning out swords, and I can prebuild archers to queue upgrade to Xbows.
Who wants to read some sleep deprived drivel? the tl;dr is in the spoiler here in case you, as a sane individual, decide better to avoid my ravings.
tl;dr: There is a path into Theocracy immediately after an Astro bulb if Banking completes on the first turn of the GA (no saved gold needed due to GA commerce and Merc) and potential wealth builds smooth out issues with timing. Turn before triggering GA Westminster requires 144 gpp and WT requires 80 ggp, Oakenclough requires 70 (which it reaches eot137 without GA). Banking T1, Westminster GA@200 points, revolt and Calendar T2, Compass T3, WT GS@300points and Optics T5, Astro bulbed T6 (does not need to be completed!), Oakenclough GS@400 points and Theology T7, revolt T8
Here is the F6 amalgam screenshot from T121. The only difference is that I have Metal Casting and a lot more saved gold this turn.
Right now the choices fall into the following paths, given that Machinery lands eot130:
Guilds into Banking. Mercantilism (~85bpt in Serfdom, ~60 bpt in Slavery until I finish libraries in new cities), Stock Exchanges (~140bpt if in every city, Grocers (only relevant to Aldeburgh and 500 point GM) and Knights after HBR is researched. Around 2750 base beakers combined.
Compass into Optics (into Astro double bulb with Calendar). Explorer (meh), Harbour (in Aldeburgh unlocks HE!), and Caravel. The harbour is an interesting point, with Moai and Vassalage it gives 8XP, so a caravel could be built as N2/NF1/NS for 4 moves, 1 transport capacity (takes Cavendish traveling), and can move over ocean. It would be back up for the galley to the east. Compass costs 599 base beakers, Optics 955 base beakers (neither tech known).
Calendar: +1 happy immediately, +5 commerce in Kettlness. +1 happy after Owlthorpe pops borders (due to double library culture, border pops in next 10 turns). Necessary for Astro bulb, but also solves lots of minor happy problems in WT until forge completes. Costs around 427 base beakers.
Construction: Gives Catapults (collateral over land), Xbows (collateal off boats), easier road movement between Lucker and Seahouses (I don't know when I even mention that) and opens up Engineering. Colosseum is only relevent if I revolt into Theocracy or for triple promo knights (ie high production cities can justify it). 496 base beakers (at present, expected to fall significantly before I can research it).
HBR: Stables and knights. Nuff said. 291 base beakers.
Aesthetics into Literature: Aesthetics holds no value to me, because I can't build SP or Parth due to hammer cost, but Lit gives HE, which with marble would pay back in about 4 turns, and NE, which I want to build in WT as soon as I can stop pumping missionaries. Aesthetics 415 base beakers, Literature 259 base beakers.
Engineering: faster road movement for reinforcements to deal with TBW and hold his land, pikes (good for holding choke point at Sneatonthorpe), Castles (need in every coastal city for trade routes and to hold against naval invasion), and workshop hammer (I will have workshops in a couple of cities so it's not a trivial amount). 1605 base beakers.
Astronomy: Trade over ocean tiles (so can't get screwed over by a random war dec hurting resource trades), Galleons (key component in effective warfare), required for next naval military units (Frigate and SoL), and Observatory (150 hammer +25% research with a scientist slot). And increases the KTB for missing techs from 4% to 6% if other players don't grab a Renaisance era tech first. Assuming 200 population on turn that I bulb, then costs [4495-2*(1500+3*200) = 295 base beakers.
Theocracy: +2XP on units built in cities I can spread Toaism to. 750 base beakers
These tech choices need to be considered in the context of what my needs are. In no particular order:
Catch up in tech with the leaders (currently down CoL, HBR, Machinery and Guilds minimum on OH/Hitru).
Enable building units needed to murder TBW in his bed. (Xbows, galleons, potentially knights and cats).
Enable building units to make sure Rusten doesn't galleon rush me into a grave (Privateers).
The key to order is this: Banking comes first. If I can get into Mercantilism on the third turn of a GA, then I would have 6 turns of around 450 base bpt at breakeven, (current breakeven of around 215bpt, GA commerce of ~120 pushed through beaker modifer as costs are constant or ~150bt, plus Mercantilism 85bpt), give or take (growth cancels out lost scientist slots on last turn). Those 6 turns are enough to grab Compass, Optics and Calendar in 5 turns and still be able to get Construction if KTB increases (or if Stock exchanges are completing).
The Astro bulb is dependent on how and when I generate the gpp, but I don't even see how I can get the GS that slowly, especially with the extra 30gpp from the merc spec. If I can delay the GA slightly to fit in the early revolt into Merc, it is definitely beaker limited.
But here is the real curveball: There is an option to delay the GA further to try and force Banking>Compass>Calendar>Optics>Bulb Astro>Theocracy>revolt into HR/Vassalage/Slavery/Merc/Theo on the last turn of the GA. Specifically, Banking probably has to be finished on the first turn of the GA, to allow Compass and Calendar T2 and T3 in whichever order, then Optics T5, Astro bulb T6 and Theocracy T7. This is only actually tight in getting Compass, Calendar and Optics in 4 turns which requires ~1975 base beakers, but even that can be verified on the first turn of the GA, so this is a plausible tech path. Theocracy in 2 turns is trivial.
This would open up Amphib units for a TBW assault. Do I go for it? I don't know, and I'm not making this sort of decision whilst sleep deprived. I'd need to push in Meditation (not a problem) to build a monastery after the GA, and it would therefore affect the timeframe to NE because I would be reliant on WT to pump out a few missionaries, but how valuable would that be? But I wouldn't need to pump out missionaries for every city (or maybe I would itf it means being able to ignore barracks...)
The upside is Theo at medium cost versus OR at high cost (which is roughly 10gpt), but that takes roughly 9 turns to pay back each turn I miss Mercantilism. Then it comes down to saved hammers I can get from whips into semi-critical infrastructure (courthouse and forges) in new-ish cities.
There are methods to build up units via prebuilding. The options I would have are prebuilding archers (into Xbows), galleys (into galleons) and chariots (into knights). Beyond that I'd have to prebuild longbows and swords, but there are still an easy 150 hammers per city I can prebuild whilst waiting for a missionary. And I will be building Stock Exchanges at a minimum in most cities (it's 100 hammers and pretty much every city is making, or will make, over 20 commerce per turn). It's my courthouse. So I can finagle a build order for every city...
Mostly, though, I reckon I would need to work out how to spam missionaries into cities in the most important order, and chain them from city to city so that as I spread religion, on that turn the new city builds a missionary for the next city. I remember doing this in PBEM5B, using (whip) overflow and chops to make it work. If I could do it there whilst spreading 4 separate religions then I can do it here for 23 cities. I don't really need to do this if I intend to sit in OR (or atleast, not to this level).
The downside is that every turn I push the GA back, I delay Privateers and my defence against Rusten. But there is also a very good argument that if I want to "threaten" a strong defence, 4XP privateers promoted to C2 are going to be very difficult to overcome on defence whilst I hold the coastal areas. And it adds another promotion to whipped Xbow/longbow in the islands which again makes them harder to take.
I delay whipping units, OTOH, I still build up the pop I intend to whip and I can still get the prebuilds ready to whip (so I'm really delaying the whip timer starting and the time to position the units). But then again: I ought to be looking at how I can use galleons to ferry units at 5 and then 6 tiles rather than stick with roads. Chaining units is probably key to correct unit positioning.
Fuck. I'm selling myself on this, because if it works, I'm in a much better place to just roll over the Borsche/Elkad island I decided not to contest, and then smother GKC, and I don't think it will be more than 3 turns slower to whipping than ignoring Theocracy completely. And I'm probably underestimating beaker output.
If the GA was being triggered T136 to grab Guilds, then I don't think I'd be able to build an 9XP unit from here for some time: I'd have to go Compass after Banking, and then a harbour would take 3 turns, then I don't know if I'd get Optics in time. Probably be looking at getting the HE boat out around T146 and it would likely be a galley not a caravel.
Moai is due eot 134 with irrelevant overflow. I can fit a 5 turn forge in (GA does not affect timing despite picking up specs and losing hills). If the GA is pushed back to allow the Theocracy route, then I reckon the GA is started on T140 (might require a turn of wealth building but with that smoothing any niggles T140 is not unrealistic). That means Aldeburgh will be size 13, pushing size 14. It would be at ~200gpp of it just gives up the three hills. Not much and it will need to build a grocer for the merchant slots later.
BUT, if I am in Theocracy, I don't need the next golden age to swap any civics until I'm ready to swap into Free Speech. So why even care about that? If I instead just focus on hammers and military, then I count 44 base hpt if I pick up an engineer in a GA, 33 out of GA. Essentially 2 turn Stock Exchange (I'll find the missing hammer somewhere), 2 turn Harbour, 1 turn caravel via overflow and galleons out the wazoo.
I need to go back and make a back up plan for the second GA: Aldeburgh is more important to the war effort.
Currently writing up the T130 report, but on the mis-post in the Tech thread: I'm #2 in cities, and Gav has more units than OH/Hitru which suggests that he was top power.
But the issue is that BeardBeard has 30 units total, so I would worry that Gav might be about to eat him and take a double holy city. Now I can't act on this in a meaningful way except to notice that this would influence my decisions regarding state religion. Do I have proof they are neighbours? No, but given I haven't met either of them there's a good chance they are.
I wish I hadn't seen it, but now that I have, everyone should have access to it.
I think that this report is going to be a long winded one. Going to try and tie everything together. I'll probably fail. The pictures are also taken at different times of the turn so the event log is a little out of whack.
Elkad is asking around for gold. First thoughts were that he is going to upgrade his previously built CG3 archers, but he may also use the gold to research Construction. I made a counter offer:
I need the rest of the gold to research Machinery this turn, but I would consider the value of a future, larger trade.
Essentially the decision reduces to where the gold will help me more: slowing down OH/Hitru (and relying on Elkads competance), or pushing my tech. Admittedly slowing down Inca helps everyone (so Rusten gets a free ride) but then again I also get a measure of interest in the deal and get to figure out if it affects future research (gut feeling is that deals signed this turn do not affect Guilds, deals signed in 3 or more turns do).
The only reason not to do the trade with Elkad is if I think he is going to renege. I don't think he will, he doesn't have that reputation. Anyway, he logged in and took the offer before I wrote this report. I don't know if has made other offers to other players: it would be nice to think that Rusten would make a similar offer, does Elkad need to if he is pushing for Construction, even my offer is enough for him to 2 turn Construction in a GA. I'd be more interested in knowing if he needed the gold to push Machinery, but then we would be looking at 5 turns and I don't know if he would be able to get enough Xbows in time to matter.
Elkad decided to stick with Slavery. Probably wisest move, and it points towards grabbing construction and whipping everything in sight in 7 turns, with judicious whipping from this turn. But look at Lucifer: awful positioning from me if it falls to OH, as it covers tiles on this continent. I really do not want Elkad to fall. That city is building one turn longbows for the rest of the game. Given the size of the map, and the positioning of their empires, I don't think that this city is going to fall for 30 turns unless a suprose boat attack breaks it (please Elkad don't fuck that up, keep 2 longbows in the city).
That said, if Elkad has a front city on a hill with walls like he has here, then this is going to be a bloodbath without siege for OH/Hitru. It really does make me wonder how this plays out, and if Elkad is even the target (Could it be Pindicator for the second Shrine and immense amounts of land?)
Also note that Hinduism spread to Kettlewell. I'll be ignoring that (until it causes a missionary to fail at which point I'll quote myself mockingly. And a forest growth, that's decent.
But I said Rusten was getting a free ride?
Looks like Rusten has also invested in the "Screw over OH/Hitru" fund, and more than I did. OTOH, he can afford it:
Nothing I could ever do about that. The master blacksmith event has the following outcomes:
Quote:1.1 Copper resource is revealed
2.All Swordsman units gain the Shock promotion
3.IF you have a state religion gain 1 engineer specialist in the triggering city
I imagine that if he could get that in his capital he'd take the free engineer spec, but you can't choose where it lands, so none of these are particularly game breaking. Just stacking more advantages on top of each other. Probably better than the library quest, but then I got a free whales resource and leadership on a scout and he got the motherlode event for a bunch of gold...
...not like we have gotten constant slave revolts.
I don't know what Rusten is researching right now, nor do I know if he is top GNP (well, I do know he isn't top GNP ) but to be saving a weird amount like that suggests he is one turning a tech (or finishing a tech now on the second turn because I think he researched Machinery eot 128). He'll report this turn, to show his achievement.
And now for the relaxing interlude of exploration screenshots:
You can just see the forest in the top left corner, I was planning to cottage that tile, not complaining about the extra hammers...
Row, row, row, your boat...
Next turn I'll move the scout NW - S, the chariot reloads and the galley wanders along the coast. T132 reload the scout, galley wanders a bit futher and the chariot will be dropped off for a bit more scouting. Scout hopping until I find another barb galley, run into culture or find out that this is all Pindicators and there are no coastal paths anywhere.
Slight change to scouting plans, given that 2MN has likely not colonised everywhere: the chariot will run along the coastal path, Stackhouse will stick along the road network in borders, and Gilbert will follow the southern coast (and can use G2 to step onto hills outside borders to scout more quickly. This probably means that Gilbert is left behind as he probably has a much longer route to take for scouting.
Right now I'm trying to meet and find Adler/AT, BaII, BeardBeard, Commodore, DS, Gav, and find where superdeath is. superdeath should be near 2MN given that they are at war, so I should find him soon. I imagine that most of the other players are to the north: one northwest of Pindicator, one east of OH, then another 2 players between them, then one player west of GKC (might be able to meet with the western galley), one player east of Rusten (might luck out with Gilbert). I'm not sure when or how I could meet the northern players, I think I'll meet them with the circumnavigation units, either during the push for that or afterwards when I send those units north.
And now for the resumption of tech, civic, and great person planning in walls of text:
Maximum output in GA with Mercantilism on T1, @size 14 minimum with full food box: 6*(5+4+1)*6+1*(5+0+1)*6+1*2*6=408
Maximum output in GA with Mercantilism on T1, @size 13 minimum with full food box: 7*(6+3+1)*6+1*2*6=436
Maximum output in GA with Mercantilism on T1...no. Not doing it. Moai pushing boats. But theoretically? Size 14 minimum with full food box: 6*(6+4+1)*6+1*(6+3+1)*6+1*(1+2)*6+8*(1)*2=490 (pure Engineer/Merchant/Prophet from Moai)
Maximum output in a GA with Mercantilism on T1, @size11 minimum with full food box: 7*(5+3+1)*6+1*6=384 (Merchant/Engineer pure)
Maximum output in a GA with Mercantilism on T1, @size 9 with full food box: 7*(4+3+1)*6+1*(2)*6=348. @size 12 with full food box: 6*(4+4+1)*6+1*(4+1+1)*6+1*(2)*6=372.
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These are all the cities that have a large enough food surplus to run a bunch of specialists, minus Kettleness because that city needs to focus on development as I need naval production down on the south coast and minus Seahouses, which is the HE city elect. And if some smart alec wants to talk about Catfish/Huxter taking both food resources, cannabalizing the other city and running specialists, no chance I do that on an island next to Rusten.
I already have a great scientist for popping the first GA. If I delay the GA start until T136 then I know I can generate great people from Westminster, WT and Oakenclough in some order. If I started to work specialists in Sneatonthorpe I could generate significant gpp, at the cost of city development and military. Aldeburgh I've already disregarded because it makes more sense to pump 9XP boats, IF I can land Astro. Oh, on that note:
I forgot about this. I can't bulb Astro unless I research CoL. You'd think this is a problem, but it actually opens up a somewhat unusal bulb option. None of this is actually that relevant, but I think it's interesting to see what the bulb paths are like if you block off usually core techs:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech
What happens when you don't research ordinary tech paths:
If I research Machinery>Guilds>Banking, you know what a GS bulbs? For me it goes Compass>Optics>Aesthetics>Calendar. Put these in the right order and I think I can actually research all techs in 4 turns, but I can definitely do them in 5 in a GA. But that's irrelevant, just look at what happens afterwards: Gunpowder (as Engineering needs Construction), and as Chemistry is locked behind Engineering, Meditiation of all techs pops up. Then Drama and Theology are in the bulb list?! Madness.
What I'm more interested in looking at is what would a third great person bulb after Astro: if I shoved in CoL then I'd be looking at Aesthetics, then Gunpowder, or Engineering if I knocked Construction out of the way. But I can get a GS from each of Westminster, WT, Oakenclough and Sneatonthorpe. It's worth exploring the options even if after review the options are ridiculous.
As it turns out, the options aren't ridiculous if you wanted to do a Steel/MS beeline. Knock out Aesthetics after Optics and Calendar, then use one GS to bulb Gunpowder, knock out Construction, bulb Engineering with a GS (it ought to complete without additional research), complete Gunpower and use a single GS to bulb most of Chemistry (or double bulb it to completion), but if you didn't double bulb Chemistry, then you could use a fourth GS to bulb Military Science.
Think this is unrealistic? For me it's not that unrealistic, for Rusten it would actually be trivial (due to Pacifism from bulbing Philo and using a GP for a shrine, he would need to generate 400, 500, 600 and 700 points. He could actually do something like this and it would be hilariously difficult to counter. Except he'd have to hard research Astro. This strategy is actually much more suited to a mostly land based map.
No, I'm sticking with the Astro double bulb, but now I have to find an additional 420 base beakers if I want to revolt into Theocracy at the end of the GA. I'm rethinking what makes sense. The idea seems sound, but I probably have to wait until Banking is finished to achieve that.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the Oakenclough GS though. I don't want a quick second GA. I know that it is a legitimate option though: use the second GA to power through army and naval production and gamble on using the two periods to break GKC and TBW in close succession, but by stringing the GA together I wouldn't need to worry about Theocracy timing, and I could focus on spamming religion and using OR to get forges everywhere, second GA is positioning units, then go to town after the second GA with the whips and just attack everything. It's risky, but it's probably the right move.
I can generate the GM from Sneatonthorpe. I'd have to generate a few GM points now, because I can't build a market (if I wanted the GM by the end of the first GA). I can generate a GS from Oakenclough, with the same solution to the same problem. Or I could swap those two cities around to try and generate the 200 and 300 point GP from there, and then grab the GS later on from Westminster and WT (but at the cost of affecting religion spam. So this is one option but I'm pulling away from it because it feels risky.
But here's the problem: Everything from HoT down in this list will lag in development. Eswick and Backaskaill can just be ignored because they're nothing more than a (FIN) fishing village, but I need a while longer to get lighthouses down in Head of Tind, Southease, Widewall, and Papa Westray (lack of forests). I need turns to generate the food to grow them, until they have that infrastrucutre in place they are well, not quite a net drain, but a defensive liability.
I'm behind in all infrastructure compared to Rusten and OH/Hitru, and I'm also down significant tech (Rusten: Calendar, CoL, Philo, HBR? Meditation, half of Machinery. ~2700 base beakers. OH: That plus Guilds and minus Calendar, ~4000 base beakers).
Don't let the demographics later fool you into thinking I'm on equal footing. That Astro double bulb is my way of catching up, if they don't do it or if they bulb something different.
I do need to play catch up, and war with TBW (if done right) is probably the quickest way to do that. That means the Astro bulb is of paramount importance because Galleons are the only way to win that war in a timeframe that matters.
Theocracy only matters to enable the last promotion on certain hitters (Amphib Xbows and swords make a real difference and and a few CG3 longbows to suck up counter punch). Looking at a combat calculator, it's actually not a trivial change. Lacking the last promo probably doubles the unit numbers needed if fighting against longbows in cities.
So whilst it is possible to invade without Theocracy, it does not seem smart. No, I'm going to force the issue: Astro bulb into Theocracy revolt in a single GA, and I delay the GA until I have Banking in hand: I will research Calendar>Compass>CoL>Optics>bulb Astro>Theocracy. Construction, Aesthetics, Literature and HBR need to be filled in afterwards in an order to be determined (probably Construction for colloseum and Xbows in core production cities is necessary as first tech)
The second GA should be kept as a back up, and with that in mind: Sneatonthorpe needs to grow huge, and needs all of the forge, grocer and market (5 specialist slots), and it does need to work some specialists in the GA even if it doesn't work any now.
And it still needs a fucking walls and decent garrison.
So I've caught up in crop yield, even if I haven't caught up in population. GNP is inflated by 4 player KTB, MFG is middling, and Rusten has around 25 more pop than I do (go knows what OH/Hitru have with their whip sprees). And I'm down 250K solder points on top power, which is now OH/Hitru, and I'm down 25-30 units there as well (thanks to the spoiler info).
I said on T121 that I had fallen back, and was 13 turns behind in growth. I have kept on pushing back the time to the first GA, which I've been planning on using to get the one piece of infrastructure I need to catch up. I can't build anything except swords, and from next turn, trebuchet.
Have I caught up? No, I'm just as far behind in development of the next set of critical investments, if not further: I'm probably 20+ turns away from whipping an army and I still need to figure out how to cram down the stock exchanges I need. But doubling up the second GA doesn't actually help me that much and screws me in the late game getting into Environmentalism, FS and US.
It's possible to do something that appears pretty stupid, but is actually quite threatening to other players yet doesn't cost much at all (and basically covers all defensive and offensive needs for a very long time).
Tech path is straight forward: 1 Calendar>2 Compass>3 Aesthetics>4 CoL>5 Optics>6 double bulb+complete Astro>7 bulb Gunpowder with a GS but research Theo>8 revolt and breathe. But generate a fourth GS, and keep on hand for bulbing Chemistry, or save for the next GA. The tech path is pretty much set in stone, as the need is to complete one tech every turn, and ensure there is enough overflow generated to cover the "big" techs that should take more than a turn of research.
Is this doable? Yes. So long as the GA starts after Banking is researched, the issue is the amount of beakers that needs generating, not the number of techs, or the number of GS generated that is the limiting factor.
Why do it? The aim is the (threat of the) chemistry bulb: frigates to remove cultral defence (Castles no longer work against amphib attacks, and I'll have amphib Xbows with Theo!), to invalidate privateers as a defense, thereby force OH/Hitru and Rusten to tech Astro and Chemistry. But the only real cost is a high pop GS bulb into Gunpowder which drops it to a ~300 adjusted beaker tech, which is a rather unimportant bulb target at face value yet needed on the route to Red Coats, and it's more efficient than double bulbing Chemistry. In fact, it's the only tech on the path to Rifling that I can bulb with a GS and get full value: Paper is only half a GS, and then Education is the bulb target rather than Printing Press.
This leaves HBR, Literature, Construction and Engineering for cleanup. Even out of a GA, after building stock exchanges those first three techs should be a turn a piece. Gunpower shouldn't be more than a turn, but Engineering probably requires saved gold and two turns of max research. I want/need all those techs anyway, so it's not like any of the beakers are wasted. it really is only the third GS bulb into Gunpowder, which HAS to happen before Theocracy otherwise the bulb redirects into Paper and then Education/Printing Press. But the fourth bulb doesn't have to happen, it's an option if I need frigates to mangle up OH/Hitru around TBW because they are being obnoxious (and to stop Rusten just beelining all the good civic enabling techs in the Renaissance era). The second GA would probably be enabled by WT with NE working 4 merchants (market and crocer), engineer (forge) and spy (courthouse), which doesn't require the free specialist slots from serfdom or Caste.
Nor does this path affect the time to start building Xbows: Construction comes immediately after the GA anyway, so it would come the same time as an first GA that ends in a Theocracy revolt. All it really costs is the set up to land the fourth GS (and any small pecularities to ensure that the three bulbing GS need to land within the first 6 turns of the GA, but that's not actually that difficult: Just need to speed Oakenclough up but with the delay to starting the GA until after Banking already does that).
I think this is the winner. It gives me every tool I need to take and hold everything from GKC and TBW, at the cost of the 200, 300 and 400 point GP. It should even out the tech lead (possible even put me at the front?) and I should have the opportunity to cram down the stock exchanges everywhere I need in the first GA before whipping everything in sight. And I save the second GA for civics revolts.
Turn report for T131 tomorrow, I have been reliably been informed by my wife that if I type another report tonight she will make me watch dreadful action movies.
But spoiler information analysis is not a turn report!
(January 27th, 2020, 03:36)Ramkhamhaeng Wrote: Re-post of spoiled data.
Code:
gameName: RB46
gameTurn: 130
modName: RtR_4.1.1.6
bAutostart: 1
bPaused: False
mode: pb_admin
Total uptime: 95 days, 21:12:00
Current timer: 11:18:28
Next timer: 20:00:00
X Id Player Score Leader Nation Gold Cities Units Status
0 AT 486 Julius Caesa Sumerian Emp 42 21 46 Disconnected
1 2metraninja 296 Mao Zedong Ethiopian Em 178 11 75 Disconnected
2 OH 644 Victoria Global Defin 305 27 80 Disconnected
3 GeneralKilCa 394 Darius I Aztec Empire 350 17 35 Disconnected
* 4 Dark Savant 433 Bismarck Morgan Indus 32 14 61 Disconnected
5 Commodore 587 Wang Kon Old Zealand 18 18 65 Disconnected
6 Mouseferatu 485 Mehmed II Khmer Empire 144 17 38 Disconnected
* 7 Rusten 695 Isabella Indian Empir 72 22 50 [81 ms]
* 8 Krill 527 Hannibal Little Engla 337 23 54 Disconnected
9 TBW 347 Shaka TBW Empire 21 11 36 Disconnected
10 Borsche 388 Suryavarman Fat Empire 425 13 48 Disconnected
11 pindicator 544 Pacal II Oriath Empir 358 22 71 Disconnected
12 Superdeath 421 Boudica George Carli 248 17 50 Disconnected
13 Gavagai 467 Stalin German Empir 274 15 81 Disconnected
* 14 b 394 Charlemagne Holy Roman E 179 12 31 Disconnected
15 Elkad 472 Churchill NAE 608 14 53 Disconnected
First of all, second in cities, get in.
Secondly: Gav is going to murder someone.
Third: GKC has 35 units, and 17 cities. A stiff breeze could knock him over, which answers the nagging question in the back of my mind: is he going to try and attack me? I don't see what he could attack me with, but I can't let NB this lull me into a false sense of security: he got a 20 point score increase, did he just land Feud?
Fourth: I need to meet AT to make sense of what's happened. I don't understand why so many players have capped out in the mid teens on cities. I think the land distribution is wonky, or the access to islands is not being utilised by some players.
Relatively short report this: The only thing I need to work out from a "How to I make my GA plan work" is the great people, but I'm still mulling that over. The main event this turn is meeting BeardBeard:
According to the spoiler information, BeardBeard has 12 cities as PRO/IMP HRE.
I try not be rude, but I have to ask...what? How? A double holy city and a single shrine is not enough reason to be this far behind. He couldn't have a worse food starting area than I did (OK, maybe a little bit worse, but you're talking plains cows instead of clams and dry rice because of how I set up the extra food rule for map generation). My understanding of the Badgame group is that BeardBeard is bad, but this probably acts as good evidence that he doesn't know how to build.
I sent an OB offer because I want to be ufront with him, and no way to I war dec him. He also lacks Feudalism (not shown in the screenshot, he is unable to revolt into Vassalage). Also running breakeven slider? (Actually, is Rusten doing the same? He has been running small surplus gold recently).
My main concern for BeardBeard is he has 31 units. Give him 10 workers, 12 city MP and he doesn't even have 10 spare units, of which at least 2 are going to be galleys.
He is about to be annihiated.
This is astounding IMO, not least because of other players failing to meet BeardBeard, but because of how many -east-west paths there are likely to be: How close to circumnavigation are the other players?
I don't get the superdeath/2MN war.
Another coastal Roman city. Maybe I'll be able to trade for gems? TBW is pretty bad at worker micro (says the guy burning worker turns himself), so I don't know when he will get them hooked...
I have free support for 61 units, and this will increase a bit more. I can finish longbows without them costing me support, so I should probably just finish them rather than leave them in the queue to degrade...
I should have 1000 gold eot135, so Guilds is definitely researchable by eot138 with plenty of gold to spare. . The question is...do I want to rush Guilds? Banking is the real target, should I save a bit more gold to see if I can get any more KTB? Probably want to review this turn by turn. Currently expecting to be able to trigger the GA eot142 but might be pushed back a turn...the numbers are tight on getting all 7 techs without wealth builds in the GA.
I think my score is artificially low at this point: doesn't include land score because I stopped at 16 cities early and will not see the land points being added until T139.
THe crop yield is where I want it to be. I know I'm growing faster than Rusten (lower pop but more food), and I have top land area, and Approval rating (without hooking dye or incense) is second, so I have lots of room to still grow. More than the others.
Right now I'm watching the soldiers points, and the MFG. The only city that is really growing onto hammer tiles right now is Sneatonthorpe, but in the next 10 turns Catfish, Huxter, Lucker and Kettlewell are going to be picking up some hammers. Still don't expect my MFG to be any good though.
...What? Neighbouring a guy whipping knights from every city and you pick another fight?
Found SD. It looks like there is another isthmus of land heading north, god and TBS know how far north this spike goes. I swear that I got the short end of the stick when it comes to landing circumnavigation.
I just caught this, and I don't know what it means. Elkad is at war with DS, or is superdeath? Looking at PBSPY, look like SD is at war with DS. A war for the dyslexics, that one...
But I got a trade route to SD, and I'm trying for the easy resource. I can't see anyone else trading wine to SD, so maybe he bites? It would be extremely helpful.
BeardBeard rejected the OB. Not going to ask again. Going to push SW and see if I can avoid him.
It looks like GKC had a settling party of a single unit defending the settler, and Pindicaotr is trying to keep him off the island. Pin might settle 1N of hte gems to lock out any coastal cities from GKC. Need to know the lay of the land, but it looks like the island just heads north. I'm going to head SW with teh galley (the workboat by BeardBeard would pass the routes west of this island, so I think I'm better checking for alternative options west for circumnavigation).
Anyway, figured out the great people generation:
I need 162 points prior to triggering the GA. Then work 6 specs total for 36gpp, and generate the 300 point GS eot4 of the GA. No food deficit needed, however I can amend this to cram in another city for the 300 point GS and push Westminster higher.
I can generate these 60 points just by running two scientists, so the rest is just micro to maximise output. I'm not entirely sure if I want to push to size 14, ebcause I will struggle to generate the food need to fill out the food box again if I decide I do need to run a food deficit. And there is not point going past 162 points because I have to slow it down on the first turn of hte GA to not generate the 200 point GS here. (I accept the argument that I could try to generate the 200 point here and then push for the 500 point as well, but this harms the missionary generation at WT as that needs to then generate the 300 point GS. Random religion spread will alter this decision).
If I changed my mind and wanted to generate both of the 200 and 500 point GS here, I would immediately steal back the wheat andstart working 5 scientists. I would generate the 200 point GS eot138, and then start accumulating for the 500. I would get to 52/x by eot141, and then the city would generate 36gpp/t for 2 turns, 42gpp/t for 1 turn, and then 66gpp/t for 4 turns to end with an empty food box. Total points accumulated by the final turn of the GA: 358 points. I'd need to then cram in an observatory, but I would be able to generate the remaining 142 points within 20 turns of the end of the GA. I think I could research to Chemistry faster, but this is a better way to generate a GS for a GA
I need 128 points prior to triggering thee GA, and to be size 13. Work both food resources, and 12 specialists on T1 of the GA: 72gpp gives the 200 point GS immediately. Then swap everything over to hammers and pound out as many missionaries as possible.
The first turn I can build a missionary WT will only make 2hpt, so I can't finish a missionary until the second tuirn of the GA, and then it spends a turn moving. In other words, I amd not going to finish a missionary per turn, I need other cities to pitch in during OR.
Owlthorpe is a city from which to build missionaries. I'm planning to grow it to size 11 and drain the food box to achieve that: working a stolen hill mine, and the other two mine means 27 base hpt. If I can get that mine on the plains hill I could one turn out missionaries, but I think it is smarter to just overflow max hammers the turn before religion spreads: it gives me the same number of missionaries. There will be 3 turns prior to religion spread in a GA, so I also think that I can time a Stock Exchange to finish before the missionaries can be built (I'm going to use the entire food box here).
One example of the missioanry pathing: I can get missionaries out on the 4th (Scarrow T6), 5th (blocked by cap limit), 6th and 7th (Seahouses) turn of the GA. Given that WT should also be building missionaries on the 2nd (Owlthorpe T4), 3rd (Catfish via Eswick on T5), 4th (Aldeburg T6), 5th (blocked by cap), 6th, and 7th (Sneatonthorpe) turns, I need to ensure that the travel time is perfect to not hit the national cap (well, this is impossible but limit the damage).
For example, I can ensure that Catfish makes enough hammers via overflow to complete a missionary eot5 and plant into Huxter T6, but with two extant missionaries already I couldn't build any more on T5.
I need to work out which cities are the priorites and go from there. There is one hell of an argument for getting Meditation prior to the GA somehow and building a monastery in Owlthorpe for after the GA to keep on pumping missionaries (the forge pays for itself even if the city looks lacking in production). That way WT can swap over to NE preparations. In fact this fits in so well with missing missionary turns it's another delay I'm probably going to have to do (but lets be fair: no point doing this tech plan if I don't get religion into the relevant cities). Best time to get it is immediately after I would research Guilds IMO, purely due to the need to plan around the slider, but so long as it occurs before the GA is triggered it's fine.
It's not worth growing past size 9. by eot141 there will be 135 GS gpp here, and then it's just work 8 specialists for 48 gpp/t. Oakenclough would generate teh 300 pointsd GS on eot4 of the GA, except that Westminster generates it on this turn, and then Oakenclough finishes the 400 point GS on eot6 of the GA, to immediately bulb into Gunpowder (or be held for a GA).
Now none of this allows me to use the 500 point GS to bulb, because I'm not generating it. End of the day: I'm not happy to to cripple a city to force it out, when such a city would generate significant amounts of beakers/gold from cramming down an SE and running decent tiles. Not 2K beakers worth of output, but a lot. A 500 point GS has no other role than to be used as a bulb (or rather, allows the 400 point GS to be used as a bulb).
Posting this just to show that I have either a reasonable chunk of fail gold, or a wonder before the start of the GA. I'm dearly in need of another 6 or so workers, but I can't figure out where to build them at this point. I want to windmill the hills, but I think I'm not going to be able to do that. Might get a single windmill down and try to speed this up, but it's irrelevant compared to the rest of the current planning.
Yeah, when I said I would have 1000 gold saved by eot135...we'll see. I'll definitely have beakers invested in Guilds.
I'm going to log back in after someone whips just so I can show this at 9% of world pop.
EDIT: did this, after DS whipped 10 pop...and Rusten is still at 9% of world pop. I think he is only 15 or so pop ahead at this point, so I've definitely caught up in food, now it's the hammer impairment.
Rusten revolted out of Serfdom on T131, so he dropped 10-15 pop from slots onto tiles (doubt he dropped them all onto plains hills). So I'm not top in crop yield, but as I've said before, that's no longer the most important measure we have.
I have to hold my hands up and say that I made a mistake this turn. I misclicked and there are going to be consequences of that misclick:
I clicked accept, and I didn't mean to. This was my last spare wine which I "lost" for 10 turns. Or so I thought.
So Elkad, who was repaying gpt to Rusten and GKC declared to stop the payments, but he didn't declare on me. And the wines demand is essentially my route to keep him in check.
As much as I admire his brazen attempt to secure his position, I don't see this working long term. He just pissed off the only players supporting him (Rusten and GKC, not me), and as much as I want him to be a pain in the arse to OH/Hitru, he will quickly outlive his usefulness and then I'll cut my "losses" of the iron gift and wine demand. I don't see how he threatens OH/Hitru, so after he has blunted their attack, he can't do anything to take his cities back or tie up units. I will simply have to find another player with whom I can get OB and trade resources with. Superdeath, probably.
Oh yeah, and someone else built the GW.
It was Elkad. Again (He built it in PB42). His game plan always seems to be "Get eaten by someone with knights because I can't build an economy and build wonders instead", and now he has pissed off his allies because of his decision making. All you need to defend against knights in this mod is IW, HBR and Construction for WE and cats. Then add in Machinery for collateral Xbows and you can manage most things. Instead he went for Feudalism (and Monarchy), and trades beakers for saved hammers on barracks to get promotions, but on units he doesn't need. Guilds is about 4K beakers more than Machinery and the classical era techs, One should be able to play defense: a player can then head straight into Engineering for Castles (80 hammers with a trade route!), workshop hammer, road movement so your slowmover stack is faster on defense than the knights you are fighting against, and pikes!
And there is no route past GKC. In fact I've probably screwed myself slightly, because he had an archer/worker/settler stack on the flood plain, and if he settles there I can't get my galley past at all. I need to make my mind up if I want to offer him OB or stick with my current policy. If he can give me a quick path through his territory then does it give me circumnavigation quicker? He has so few units, and Pinidicator is being his main opponent, do I need to be concerned about him attacking me given how close I am to the GA and getting back into Slavery?
Decisions, decisions. Gut feeling is I'm going to have to offer OB, and if I need to I just run the EP slider after the Theocracy research.
I made a mistake: I should have had another item in the build queue. I got lucky that Elkads turn resolved after mine. I've added a forge into the queue, and will make 85 gold from teh failed build. FWIW, the tooltip has shown that I'm making +50% production with stone...but it was in white, not green, and it has not been adding the "bonus" hammers so whilst I think the mechanic/game option works as intended, I can see how players would fail to misunderstand that one does not get the bonus production.
TBS, please, make it stop...how far north does this isthmus go?!
I'm going to poke around as much as possible with the southern scout, as 2MN seems to be roading up to the iron tile for a new city. My scout should be on the chariot tile on T138. Not that this matters if the isthmus goes another 2 tiles further north than I can already see.
...TBW got wrecked by those two Elkad cities. And I don't see Elkad keeping them once OH/Hitru makes his move, TBW will just rolled up with two small stacks (4-6 preats and 2 cats would be enough for each city).
Wait, OH, just had a workboat head down here. Shit. Is OH going to boat TBW? We might be fighting much sooner than I expected. I need to get sentries up there. I can't rush anything as I'm commited to this plan, but afterwards I can pretty much fight forever.
Some worker micro, because it's relevant to civic discussion: I have 16 workers, and I have not pictured two on the islands (no interactions with those two workers, they are doing thier own thing).
9 watermills. That's what I'm currently trying to get built: 2 at Huxter/catfish (T136 and T138), 4 at Seahouses (T132, T134, T136, T138), Sneatonthorpe (T134), Aldeburgh (T140) and Oakenclough (T145). I can make a further 4 watermills with two new cities for 13 total. Windmills? 2 each at Oakenclough (T138 and T142) and Kettlewell (at somepoint). I actually need the mines. But cottages I am throwing down everywhere I can, especially onto plains tiles for the GA.
I can just about cover everything I need to, with the except that I need a couple more cowrkers around Southease and Scarrow to get the cottages I need down for the start of the GA. Scarrow is running out of tiles to work, and as I'm not planning on whipping it I'm just going to pick up the grass forest and bare grassland and wait for the workers to get to them.
Oakenclough is going to have to start giving up tiles to Wetheral as well, which si why I'm pushing a worker to windmill the hills.
Next turn the grass watermill will be down at Seahouses reaches 30base hpt. Even with what I've written above, I ought to reconsider throwing 12 worker turns at replacing a farm and a new watermill and instead delay replacing the fp farm, as those worker turns can instead be put into cottages and grown earlier.
Couple of thoughts: Timble needs to swap onto some form of infrastrucure that actually makes sense after this last archer (intended for HR happy and will be back up in WT). Westminster needs a barracks. Lot of happy cap room for whipping, but how many whips could I realistically get in slavery if I can throw down most SE in teh GA? Serfdom is not going to be worth more than 20hpt (OTOH, also saves hammers invested into spec slots). I need to keep an eye on that, because I can see a point where slavery has a time limit on usefullness.
Nothing I could ever do about that. The master blacksmith event has the following outcomes:
) but to be saving a weird amount like that suggests he is one turning a tech (or finishing a tech now on the second turn because I think he researched Machinery eot 128). He'll report this turn, to show his achievement.
