[Spoiler] Suboptimal's Next Attempt at Lurker Frustration

[Alhambram]

Yeah, let's wait for warrior and slinger finish their roadplan before we decide where to send settler towards. Though warrior's route might be delayed or stopped if scout or other barb units from camp crosses the path.

[suboptimal]

Turn 12

Internationally, Ichabod has gained a population and finished a tech. I’ll be gaining a population next turn. All quiet on the map. I go to move the warrior and the map looks funny. Takes me a second and then I realize that yields and the grid were both turned off. Tuen them back on and continue about my business.

Warrior goes to the banks of the River Thames, finds a forest across the river. I also learn that the river does something a little unusual…




It pretty much wraps around that jungle hill and turns back northwest. Interesting. I’ll cross the river into the jungle to the northwest next turn.

Slinger moves east, finds empty coast.

[suboptimal]

Turn 13

London is 3 pop, that pushes the settler down to 3 turns to completion in the UI, which is right in-line with a EoT15 completion. Woden completed a civic, CMF completed a tech.

Warrior crosses the Thames moving northwest and makes an interesting discovery:




I’ve got Mount Kilimanjaro in my backyard (3NE of the warrior’s position). The river heads along the tile NE of the rice. Warrior will move NE-NW to “discover” the wonder for the Astrology boost and get visibility on the opposite river bank from the marsh. We’re definitely going to have to get a settler up here.

Slinger moves southwest to the lakeshore:




Nothing on settler vision to the west. This is looking like a nice place to settle, though whether it’s on the open grassland or the bananas will depend almost entirely on whether or not iron appears on that plains hill to the east.

[Alhambram]

Next turn Code of Laws finished, God King is useless since we already got source of faith generation, Urban Planning it is. Discipline is a obivious choice too.

Dotmapping is going be interesting with Kilimanjaro involved, maybe there is spot where you can settle one city which gets both coast elephants and Kilimanjaro tiles?

[suboptimal]

I was going to take God King and Survey.  

In a perfect world the Thames would loop around north of Kilimanjaro and come out on the coast just north of the edge of the fog by the elepahants.  As it stands now it sits 4 tiles away from the coastal location by those resources.  The tile directly E of Kilimanjaro is 4 tiles away from the Thames river location and is likely close to fresh water.  I think the best way to exploit both the wonder and the coast elephants will be to settle two cities rather than one.

[suboptimal]

Turn 14

Code of Laws is complete. Adopt Discipline and Urban Planning. Start Foreign Trade 21 turns to complete. Maybe I get lucky and there’s a continental divide around here somewhere. Actually, Woden got lucky and the continental divide is likely in whichever direction everyone else lies. Check the scores, Ichabod’s completed a civic and gotten an era point. Kaiser has completed a second tech.

Warrior moves into the marsh and we officially discover Mount Kilimanjaro. We’re first, so that’s three era points. No sign of the Serengeti. However, the river does empty into a lake (or coastline):




The tiles around the volcano will should all be land. I think the best course of action here is to go NE into the woods. That’ll show me the coastline/lake to the east, the tiles E and W Kilimanjaro and, if the western tile is open, what’s to the west and northwest. It might also determine if I change course and scout east of the volcano with the possibility of putting the second city up here for rapid growth.

Slinger heads for London and will be in escort position next turn. Looking at the potential paths east & northeast the settler/slinger pair will spend the first two turns moving east to the PFH (just over the mini-map above). That gives the warrior three turns to scout west of the volcano. From that position it would be two turns to settle Thames Elephants or 3-4 turns to the coastal location.

[suboptimal]

Turn 15

Hey! The turn after I discovered it (officially) it blew up!




Mmm...5tile. Tasty. Every other tile that gained fertility is currently in the fog. On the upside the removal of the forest means that I’ll potentially be able to move two tiles this turn. I think it would be hilarious if the river flooded in the next few turns. Actually, that’d be spectacular . Warrior moves to the newly minted volcanic soil. That reveals a barbarian warrior in some woods 2NW of that spot, plus some 5 tiles next to the volcano. I move northwest into open plains. That exposes me to barbarian attack next turn but lets me see a little more of what’s around.




That body of water to the northeast is not fresh water. The 5 marsh is the closest to the Thames Elephants city site that a settler could found a city on that body of water (well there or 2 tiles SE of there). If I settled directly on the elephants (which is always an option, though not ideal if I took Goddess of the Hunt) we could be riverside next to the volcano on its SE flank. (I did that in PBEM 15 and nothing bad happened ). The open plains W of the barbarian is coastal, so it appears that the tile by the elephants is both coastal and is adjacent to three water tiles.

Kaiser picked up two era points last turn.

Settler at London will be out next turn and will start a warrior. As for the settler’s destination, well, that’s another post.

[suboptimal]

City Planning Time

With the defogging of most of the “immediate” coastal area to the northeast and the settler being out...next turn...I think it’s time to do some serious dotmapping. This also ties into the pantheon discussion, which is up first.

Pantheons

The four that have be mentioned were God of the Open Sky, Goddess of the Hunt, Goddess of Festivals and Fertility Rites. Based on what I am seeing I think the order of preference is going to be God of the Open Sky, Goddess of Festivals, Fertility Rites and then Goddess of the Hunt. My reasoning is as follows:

- If I get either culture-providing pantheon I can build a worker after the warrior instead of a monument. Build times are about the same and the builder would wind up producing at least the same amount of culture as the monument.
- If I get Festivals then I’ll need to prioritize Irrigation (and farming a resource) to get the culture online. There are four plantation resources visible at present but three won’t be online until the second group of settlers in the 40’s.
- I don’t need Goddess of the Hunt to make the northern elephants workable tiles as a city up here would get at least two tiles of extra from Kilimanjaro. I’m also settling directly on the eastern elephants so that reduces the effectiveness of the pantheon (but nonetheless is a good consolation prize, I think).

The Overall City Plan




These cities are labeled north to south, not in settling order. I think there are two reasonably good options for the settler to immediately head for – location A and location D.

Location A

This city would get settled on Turn 20 and immediately buy both the 51 tile at Kilimanjaro and the coastal elephants. The city would grow in three turns and then work both elephants with the initial builds being granary → builder → galley. Once the granary completed (EoT29) the city would go back to working the 5 tile. By the time the city grows to 4 population it would have likely claimed the 32 tile as this is the highest land yield and next to a natural wonder. The only downside that I can see right now is the high front-end gold investment (~110) the 7-turn growth stall while the granary completes and the lack of a pasture for immediate culture. The pasture doesn’t matter if we don’t get that pantheon and the city eventually recovers its gold from the initial spend around Turn 52. The other current issue is getting/keeping the way clear for settlement on time.

Location D

This location shifted one to the east in order to provide room for the settlement next to Kilimanjaro in the north to be positioned on the river instead of off the river to the north. The city would found on Turn 21 and be yielding 221 at the city center plus hookup the amenity immediately. If I have God of the Open Sky as the pantheon then the city would buy the western cattle on founding and the London builder’s third charge would be a pasture on that tile. It would be in a position to form a second river valley industrial complex in conjunction with Location C, though that would involve a couple of rice harvests in the process. It has two 22 tiles immediately available for use.

Between these two locations I think that I prefer ‘A’:

- Over the first 30 turns it yields more (4 pop, 20.3/44 274.5 41 24.6 103) than ‘D’ (4 pop, 3.6/44, 223.6 35 34 31:gold) except for culture, and that disadvantage goes away if we don’t get God of the Open Sky as the pantheon.
- The higher production and its location makes it a better secondary city to build settlers out of using Magnus + Provision
- Establishes a coastal/naval presence earlier and, if there’s an improvable resource, saves a builder charge down at ‘E’ for something else (sheep pasture).

Future Locations

The next two settlers out would be headed for ‘E’ (for a southern coastal presence) and whichever of ‘A’ or ‘D’ wasn’t settled by the initial settler. ‘B’ would be up next, followed by ‘C’ and ‘F’, hopefully around the time I move to conquer Armagh in the 70’s or so. There would likely be one or two cities settled to the west and possibly one more to the east (north of Armagh) if there was room and a need for it. The base plan would be to try to follow TBS’s rough timing in PBEM 17 – found two cities by Turn 55, get another one out in the late 60’s and two more in the late 70’s. I think this is reasonably achievable without Monumentality, particularly if Ancestral Hall is built before the fourth built settler and Magnus is parked elsewhere in a high-production location (‘A’).

Regarding ‘B’ I would agree that settling directly on the bananas might not be a good approach, particularly if I get Goddess of Festivals. However, I put that city there for three reasons. First, if iron appears on the plains hill to the east then it’s only second ring to a city instead of third ring to all cities. Second, being on this tile allows some distric adjacency sharing with London. Third, it’s a bonus that the city doesn’t need to work to get, so grows faster. The "cost" for doing so is 2 and possibly 1 per turn in lost yields.

Districts

The trickiest aspect about this area of the map is Campus placement. I’m going to need other districts and/or jungles & reefs to provide adjacency bonuses as there are no mountains to speak of (well, OK, one ). So, what to do? Well, here goes my initial district placement plan...




Some quick notes first:

- B’s coastal campus only goes there if there’s no iron on that tile. If iron is there it moves SW one tile and becomes a +3 adjacency.
- No Theater Squares in the plan yet. These will depend on where I get the Mausoleum at Helicarnassus built, along with any other wonders, preferably assisted with Great Engineers. A couple can cluster around the Government Plaza or elsewhere to pick up adjacency but a couple of wonders are likely in order.
- The placement of the Encampment in the interior is intentional as it’d be supplying military engineers to get things in the empire done rather than serving as a defensive location. If the east turns out to be a front I’d consider moving it in that direction (taking the IZ down to a +5 adjacency in the process).
- C’s Industrial Zone could be converted to a +2 Campus.
- E could build an Encampment either in the marked Campus location or somewhere west of the city center.

Given England’s bonuses to workshops (+20%) coal (+2) and powered buildings (+4 additional yield) and my expected time horizon for this game, I think that building Industrial Zones is worthwhile. An IZ would get +3roduction from the Workshop, +10 from a powered factory and either 2x or 4x its adjacency bonus from a coal plant and the Craftsman policy. That is as much as 37 from a single IZ. should provide enough to be able to build industrial-era units in a reasonable fashion.

As far as district build sequencing goes…

London: Campus → Government Plaza → RND → Theater Square (?)
A: RND → Campus → Theater Square
B: RND → Campus → Theater Square
C: RND → Campus (if building) → Industrial Zone → Theater Square
D: Encampment → Campus → Industrial Zone
E: RND → Campus/Encampment → Industrial Zone
F: RND → Campus

[Alhambram]

Site A is spot which I was seeking for, in 1st or 2nd ring big food yield combined with high production yields from elephants and as bonus it is coastal which means RND, tough if it is reef, then RND can't be placed there.
Though I love to say that we need to settle spot A as first city, barbs is likely to interference. That barb warrior is just a beginning, likely another barb warrior and barb slinger is underway.
Which means it is better to retreat warrior into rainforest tile, gaining extra defense bonus and making retreat across river if needed. Three barb units ganging up warrior is getting him killed even with Discipline bonus.

Therefore Thames Elephant is more likely safe spot for 2nd city, or if you really want coastal spot, B or E is option too. Or just take risk and go for spot A.
Regarding Thames Elephant spot, I generally don't favor settling upon resources unless there isn't a other choice or if it is superior site.

Also I am no fan of settling next a volcano, it often results in endless cycle of repairing districts, buildings and improvements. Also it cause constant pop loss which can interference with planning.
Spot C got one more problem why I don't recommend settling it: zero production in first ring which means that it takes forever to build something there and volcano eruptions isn't make day better.

And spot D is upon decent 221 yield which can be increased by camp improvement and extra yields by unlocking some tech/civics. (And Goddess of Hunt as bonus if you pick it)
Then we go back to orginal spot between cow and elephant, but maybe instead found city upon rainforest hill NE of your spot D. It offers some advantages:
-Can still build RND as 3rd ring, same for industrial zone with aqueduct and dam.
-Good food and production output in form of farms and elephant tile. Also rainforest SE of elephant can be chopped and mined for production.
-For eventual God of Open Sky, cow tile is in 2nd ring, same as your spot D.
-It is very defensive placed city for potential attacks from east, hilled spot with river around it which inflicts crossing penalty for whose dare to attack this city.
-in 3rd ring is two Kilimanjaro tiles which boost future growth output allowing us to harvest rices to make room for industrial zone.

Disadvantages:
-Not all Kilimanjaro tiles are direct usable, maybe a city spot north of it, might interference with spot A.
-Less cities, my playstyle happen to be tall strong cities instead spamming endless cities as seen in PBEM 17. It might not best way to play, but it do influcence my thought progress.


Other stuff then, I always question the value of campus with merely 1 direct adjaceny from natural feature which I often consider not worth to build it. From 2 adjaceny from natural feature it is becoming more acceptable.
Government Plaza do help greatly and your dotmapping regarding campuses around government plaza is good idea. I also think that iron is going spawn at that plain hill. There isn't any other spot where it can spawn around London.
I also wonder the worth of rainforest, yes they can be lumbermilled but it comes fairly late. Often I opt to chop them, which is not good for campus dotmap. Maybe keep rainforests around government plaza campuses but chop all other rainforests unless resource is upon it?
I suggest to swap Industrial zone of city E with dam, because industrial zone also get +1 adjaceny bonus from stone quarry, totalling +6 bonus.

I am sorry if I sound critical, but our gameplay styles kinda collides. But I might gain new insights from you and vice versa, that is what dedlurker does, right?

[suboptimal]

Let's see...I'll reply to your post bottom-up since it ends with a philosophical question....

- My own gameplay style is definitely a builder type. I don't really show a preference (I think) for tall vs. wide. SP games on my own time I usually top out at about seven cities or so, because that's all you really need, particularly when you're me puttering around on King. I'm thinking about going wide in this situation because I don't think there's enough food for tall and part of the objective here will be RND spam to get a gold-powered economy. You're absolutely correct, though - having a dedlurker, regardless of having conflicting or complimentary play styles, is always an informative and educational experience, and I'm glad you (and Thrantar) are here.

- The +1 Campus is questionable, but a third district on the tile between the RND and it would get it to +2. Likewise, I think after a certain point in the game (Rationalism) the buildings are worth more than the adjacency bonuses. Relating to the above, with no geothermal vents, one mountain and sparse reefs we're going to need some Campus spam as well to keep early/mid game science output reasonable.

- One issue with chopping flat rainforests is that the tile becomes a negative-food tile without a farm. I do suppose, though, that sending Military Engineers through with the axe and builders to follow with farms would be a good forest management plan. Engineers will cost us a flat 85 each and will come with 4 charges to perform harvests or district boosting with.

- The IZ/Dam swap at E won't work. Dams require a floodplain tile with the river along two edges. Only the tiles marked for the dam and aqueduct on that river meet that requirement. London could put an IZ at the marked Campus location and get +4 out of it - 2 for the dam, 1 for district adjacency and 1 for the quarry.

Spot D

You make an interesting point about shifting it NE one tile. However, if I wanted to shift it north I'd actually put it where I marked D's IZ and then build the IZ marked for C. That puts Kilimanjaro 2nd and 3rd ring, along with the elephants, and still has the river for defense. In that case I'd buy the 5 tile at Kilimanjaro and let pop-based culture acquire the camp tile while working the jungle hill to the east. The Encampment could then go east of the dam, east of the original city marker or midway between there and 'A' for district adjacency up north. One downside you missed in this scenario is that by building the RND third ring it doesn't get any adjacency bonus. The campus would also need to move to the marsh to get +2 as this shift loses the district adjacency as the Encampment would need to move. 3

The northwest shift I describe also provides the option of shifting 'F' one tile NE if iron appears at that location. In that case there'd be two RNDs in the lake and I'd put a canal in on the stone. Actually, that shift might be worth doing regardless if we move D northwest as the city could not be seen from the coast, it accesses more food earlier and the lake RND could be used to give adjacency to a marsh Campus, making that +2.

Spot C

I agree that building next to a volcano is not without its significant risks and yes, the lack of first ring production is an issue. I think that's solvable in the short term via trade routes. If there are choppables in the area that can be used to build the districts during a Magnus tour it'd be a workable site. Regarding population loss, that's going to happen to any city working the volcano's tiles, not just any city located in the blast zone, so even City A would have pop loss issues. The key factor about building in disaster areas is to not put districts in the line of fire.

Judging by the barbs there's probably a bit more room north of Kilimanjaro to put another city up there.

Spots B & E

I don't see these spots as being strong enough for a second city location as they're slow to get started. They're good city locations but not the top two.

Barbarians

Yeah, that warrior is going to have company. The question is whether I can draw them all off to the east with the warrior. Going into the rainforest looks good but that leads the barbs in the wrong direction. I'm going to move the warrior to the C city location this turn to try to get them in that direction. It also defogs a bit more around the coast. I'll get two turns (this turn and next turn) to see if the barbs give chase before I need to decide between A and the area around D for settlement.