Lurking generally but I'm enjoying the discussion so far and wish you guys the best of luck 
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[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time
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September 24th, 2020, 02:00
(This post was last modified: September 24th, 2020, 02:05 by Miguelito.)
Great to have you on the team Mjmd, but you beat me to the few points I had in that last post.
 First off, is there something you really want to play because you find it cool, but maybe not necessarily super strong? I tend to follow this approach and then try to pair it with something I perceive as strong (Peter in PBEM64 because I wanted PHI, Justinian of cheap granaries and settlers in PB49 for SPI). I agree with Mjmd that I'm not very excited by PRO after the 1.4 nerf. Seems to me that it's just a very early game bonus which however doesn't really help with expansion, so I would argue it needs a pretty specific goal to be worthwhile... maybe if you're Rome and want to get to IW really fast? Or also seems somewhat helpful later in the game when you get a lot of TR with currency, circumnavigation , free market, maybe GLH, and may have made some enemies (and in this game with 7 rivals you may run out of trade partners pretty fast), but I still have a hard time seeing it competitive with FIN as that stage. And for Spain and Celts it seems obligatory, although others wool disagree. With ORG I always have the feeling that it's actually pretty strong, but also dull, and maybe not that awesome with Monarch costs. I'll wait for an Emperor game to pick Hammurabi of Vikings (aka the Hammer of Thor). Darius I feel is not that great if your gameplan is not to really work some coast. I'm warming up towards IND, which has received two buffs in the mod, with the very significant cost reduction on MC, so you don't absolutely need Oracle, and the reduced effect of resource production modifiers on wonders. I also like CHM, but would not want to pair it with Stonehenge, because the part of the trait that's interesting to me is the cheap monuments (interesting synergy/ anti-synergy combined in that design) So Huayna seems interesting, if you think you can do without an early game trait. In that case I would really want an early expansion bonus from the civ, and I see that realized only with the aforementioned Inca and India? (starting techs can of course also give an early bonus, but that should be discussed when we see the start).
Just to broaden the discussion re: civs, I'll ask for your opinion on some of the classics/popular ones: China, Egypt, Rome, Khmer, Zulu, France, Carthage, Vikings, Portugal? Probably not the right map for a very early UU.
September 24th, 2020, 04:06
(This post was last modified: September 24th, 2020, 04:07 by Amicalola.)
Alright, the gang's all here! Hi El Grillo, glad to hear! Feel free to switch your lurking to us exclusively anytime
 Also welcome Miguelito, and thanks for offering to team up! Loving the questions already; I suspect I tend to tunnel vision a little bit, and it's great to have things to ponder. Hmm, as far as anything I really want to play, the only thing that comes to mind is Inca for that sweet sweet granary discount. I just can't resist the temptation of a pseudo-third trait! It might be awful though, so as far as actual Good civs (if that's the case) Mali (with IND) is probably the next one I'd want to play as far as "ooh shiny" factor. With that said, in rough order is my take on the other civs you asked about: Khmer: I love barays for squeezing out that little bit of extra pop, and war elephants do seem powerful. That said, they lack the appeal of Mali or Inca to me, but I am tempted! Probably one of my first backups. Also the only civ where EXP might be worth it.~8/10. China: Great techs (everyone knows, I guess), although somewhat start-pos dependent. I think the UU is nuts (unless I've misread the changelog), but the UB is unexciting. Overall I'm not drawn to it hugely, but I do think it's a nice backup pick if available. ~7/10 Carthage: I like cothons, but am not sold on Numids for a large game. Pindicator seemed to do pretty damned well with the early on in 52 though, so this might be one I'm underestimating. ~7/10 (maybe should be higher). Portugal: Maybe good with PRO? Or FIN for super coasts? Maybe specifically Wang Kon or Darius, but otherwise seem fairly uninteresting. I don't think the UU seems useful in multiplayer, but again am open to correction. ~5/10 France: I think both units are strong, but wouldn't be very good at playing with the UU, and I don't like muskets too much as well. Salons seem nice, but also like the same mid-level impact as other buildings that come before, like Mints or Barays. Am I underestimating them? ~5/10 Zulu: I love the UB, but I have the same problem as with Rome and Egypt to a lesser extent about the unit coming too early to be impactful. Not as big a deal, but not especially interested. ~4/10. Vikings: I haven't seen them in action in multiplayer before on a serious level. They seem like decent unit and building, but not incredible either, which makes them feel kinda boring. Start techs good with seafood, awful if not. ~4/10. Egypt: I found out firsthand how obnoxious War Chariots are (shoutout to El Grillo again), and they've not been changed in this mod. I think early UU's matter less on a large map though (as you've all pointed out), so not sold. ~3/10 Rome: Similar deal to Egypt: I think they're strong on a small map, and woe betide someone that starts next to them. Not on this map though. ~3/10 This is all from a position of (very) limited experience with multiplayer, and zero hands on experience with Close to Home, so I'm hugely open to correction on any of this. Let me know!
September 24th, 2020, 04:14
(This post was last modified: September 24th, 2020, 04:18 by Amicalola.)
As far as leaders, the trait I want to play with the most is FIN, and after that it's a fairly close tie between IND, CHM, and PRO, probably in that order. ORG does look boring, that's probably my biggest problem with it. It's a fallback option, I suppose. Overall these combos leave us with, in (VERY rough order of my own preference):
Huayna Capac: FIN/IND Hannibal: CHM/FIN Wang Kon: FIN/PRO Darius: FIN/ORG Churchill: CHM/PRO Qin Shi Huang: IND/PRO (probably specific to Mali, but man it'd be a fun one). Civs we're looking at (again in ROUGH order): Inca: I just really want to try out this new granary, especially since literally no one has yet. Mali: IND + Mints just seems neat, plus skirmishers save me from rushes, which I'm probably over conscious of after my first outing India: Fast workers are very good, but play to my biggest weakness, not a strength. Would be good for a learning game, but actually I feel as though I should learn micro without Fast Workers the first time, so I don't get used to the advantage of having them. Would still be a good pick though. Khmer?: They were the civ I liked the most out of the ones you suggested, as I like both the Uniques and the techs can be good depending on start. I do think there's a decent chance that all 4 of these are gone depending on pick position, or that fishing looks near-necessary if the map is ocean-y, so I'm still keen for more suggestions re: that. Actually, the other civ that jumps out to me is Protective Celts, although that might be more of a meme than a dream. Might work a treat with someone like Wang Kon though. Overall, I think I instinctively gravitate towards combos with early-use UBs and UUs, but later-use traits, for whatever reason, which also may be skewing my judgement. I think before seeing the start my top pick would be Huayna Capac of either Inca or Mali, followed by Hannibal of the same. Mali in particular would involve us playing for the lategame, and surviving until then, I think. As with everything else, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the same. Oh God, are we going to be playing a restricted leader combo?? 
Like ElGrillo im going to lurk you all, because i need to read and learn from pindicore. I was wondering if i should help u our (we are kind of same lvl i believe) but then i saw you have much better players than me here dedlurking you already, so I ll lurk you all.
Just saying im going to read you and learn from you so as much as you can post will be apreciated! Im enjoying so much this discution already so good luck and seee you around! (September 24th, 2020, 04:06)Amicalola Wrote: China: Great techs (everyone knows, I guess), although somewhat start-pos dependent. I think the UU is nuts (unless I've misread the changelog), but the UB is unexciting. Overall I'm not drawn to it hugely, but I do think it's a nice backup pick if available. ~7/10 Just for reference I had a mistake in my 1.5 changelog. Their UU does less collateral damage now. The changelog is now fixed. Not a direct suggestion, but as a modder I always love seeing people trying things that weren't tried before.
Mods: RtR CtH
Pitboss: PB39, PB40, PB52, PB59 Useful Collections: Pickmethods, Mapmaking, Curious Civplayer Buy me a coffee (September 24th, 2020, 04:45)vanrober Wrote: Like ElGrillo im going to lurk you all, because i need to read and learn from pindicore. I was wondering if i should help u our (we are kind of same lvl i believe) but then i saw you have much better players than me here dedlurking you already, so I ll lurk you all.Welcome! Thanks, I'll try to keep posting far more than I did last time, it's always good to have more incentive. (September 24th, 2020, 05:19)Charriu Wrote:Ah, this does make more sense. I was a little confused they'd been buffed.(September 24th, 2020, 04:06)Amicalola Wrote: China: Great techs (everyone knows, I guess), although somewhat start-pos dependent. I think the UU is nuts (unless I've misread the changelog), but the UB is unexciting. Overall I'm not drawn to it hugely, but I do think it's a nice backup pick if available. ~7/10  Honestly, I still think Cho-Ku-Nus look like one of the best UUs in the game (collateral damage is just so good), but that moves China a little lower on my list. Maybe to a 6 instead of a 7/10. 
I don't think the map will be PB51 huge 150 tiles per player. PB52 is 120 something / player. So I would say some kind of early game trait / Inca / India should be involved. Although I would let it slide for Capac of Mali.
As far as early game micro. I figure we all come up with plans separately, present them, and then see how bad they are!
September 24th, 2020, 07:29
(This post was last modified: September 24th, 2020, 07:30 by Miguelito.)
I'm not as enthusiastic about Mali. +10% gold is nice on a building that you want anywhere, but no game changer. Also somewhat antisynergistic with FIN, because you get a huge gold bonus from the banks already (so diminishing returns from the mint), and you are looking at a rather high break even rate with FIN in general, so again less impact of the gold bonus.
Also skirmishers seem to me more small map material - an enemy rush is unlikely, you are not going to choke anybody (usually not a wise idea anyways), and CtH doesn't have RtR's cheap archery, so you may want to skip the tech anyways for a good while at least (when/if you want HAs/LBs/CBs). Huayna of Inca sounds fun and strong, Hannibal should ado great as well, also Vicky? Although I think I'd prefer India as a pairing (for Huayna) because as stated you want to chop a lot. But I get that you don't really feel like it. With Khmer I would not overvalue EXP, the Baray has trap potential (not to say it can't be good situationally) the prize are the unnerfed Phants. That said I still think that EXP is a decent trait for the granaries alone, just not that exciting anymore with that lone bonus. Regarding the snake strategy, I think the chance of losing Huayna is pretty low, but you never know, so if you want to be certain lock him in. I am pretty certain though that India and Khmer will fall in the first round, and likely Inca, China and Hannibal as well. But again, by all means play something you feel excited about. We're just here to try and help to make that work. Edit: of you want to include Mjmd on the thread title, the trick is to edit the OP |
