[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Amicalola]

I don't think the map will be PB51 huge 150 tiles per player. PB52 is 120 something / player. So I would say some kind of early game trait / Inca / India should be involved. Although I would let it slide for Capac of Mali.

As far as early game micro. I figure we all come up with plans separately, present them, and then see how bad they are!

Yeah, I think you're right, I was probably overestimating size. Still, works out to us thinking about the same thing. And hey, I'm totally for that micro idea! Would be fun, and also actually another good way to learn it proper, most likely. 

I'm not as enthusiastic about Mali. +10% gold is nice on a building that you want anywhere,  but no game changer.  Also somewhat antisynergistic with FIN, because you get a huge gold bonus from the banks already (so diminishing returns from the mint), and you are looking at a rather high break even rate with FIN in general,  so again less impact of the gold bonus.
Also skirmishers seem to me more small map material - an enemy rush is unlikely,  you are not going to choke anybody (usually not a wise idea anyways), and CtH doesn't have RtR's cheap archery, so you may want to skip the tech anyways for a good while at least (when/if you want HAs/LBs/CBs).

Huayna of Inca sounds fun and strong,  Hannibal should ado great as well,  also Vicky? Although I think I'd prefer India as a pairing (for Huayna)  because as stated you want to chop a lot.  But I get that you don't really feel like it.

With Khmer I would not overvalue EXP, the Baray has trap potential (not to say it can't be good situationally) the prize are the unnerfed Phants. That said I still think that EXP is a decent trait for the granaries alone,  just not that exciting anymore with that lone bonus.

Regarding the snake strategy,  I think the chance of losing Huayna is pretty low, but you never know,  so if you want to be certain lock him in.
I am pretty certain though that India and Khmer will fall in the first round,  and likely Inca, China and Hannibal as well.


But again,  by all means play something you feel excited about. We're just here to try and help to make that work.


Edit: of you want to include Mjmd on the thread title,  the trick is to edit the OP

Having slept on it, I think I agree on Mali moving down to maybe 4th or 5th on my list. I still think Industrious Mints seem like the nuts, but I was definitely over-valuing skirmishers, and maybe mints as well a little. Tunnel vision! 

Yeah, Vicky also sounds fun, I'm not sure why she didn't make my list. Probably would pick her after Huayna, Hannibal and maybe Wang (depending on how greedy we feel), but she'd be in the top 5 for sure. Sounds more and more like we're looking at Inca as our first option, with Mali, Khmer, India and China as our rough backups. I'd maybe add Celts there as well, although that completely switches up the passive gameplan.

You're probably right on Barays and my overestimation. I have more experience with the building of MP than the warfare, so I probably overvalue UBs and undervalue UUs. Elephants already seemed decent so now that they are unnerfed Str.8 I like them a lot. Definitely need to conquer someone with them to be worth taking though. 

The question is now whether we pick Huayna Capac instantly or go with Inca for our first pick. I'm inclined to agree with you that Inca is more likely to be taken, and I'm also more keen on the civ than the leader, so I think I'd rather pick Inca first, and just grab whatever decent FIN/XXX leader comes back our way, and if there are none we'll take a PRO/XXX leader I suppose. Maybe PRO/CHM for double eco/combat?

[Amicalola]

One thing that sounds 'not-good' in practice but is a nice pipe dream is if we could nab an industrious Stonehenge with Inca for Two Pseudo Traits!

[Mjmd]

Its not that crazy if your 1st or 2nd in the snake pick. I don't think Capac will be picked. After reading Miguelito on protective willingness to pick Wang is farther down, probably Capac of Mali over. Lets see starting position and snake order.

I do love Vicky....... Wouldn't be surprised if Commodore / Pin took her as I know Pin also has a crush.

[Amicalola]

Alright, we're 6/8 in pick order, which means we can (probably??) pick synergistically, BUT a lot of our intended picks might already be gone. If Huayna and Inca are both available by then, I'm thinking we pick Inca first, Huayna second. Meanwhile, in a more likely scenario where Inca is gone, I might go Huayna first so we don't lose him, but then Civ is verey dependent on everyone else. We'll see!

[GeneralKilCavalry]

[Mjmd]

Start confirmed juiced. My instinct is to go FAST. Imperialistic? There is already a second city site that can steal / share the food on the right and have river tiles. 2nd river emptying into an ocean? on the right

[Miguelito]

Start confirmed juiced.

Understatement !


Ok we have 2 directions where a second city can share 2 resources (ok ivory isn't that awesome) and be on the river,  and in the SE we can even have 3, off river though.
I also think I see a single coast tile E of the sheep but not N or S of that.

First resource has to be the wheat,  then the second one can easily be the sheep, follow up with deer and then we can decide if we want the ivory, the PH mine (long way though), or a chop. I'd want to test at least whether it makes sense to grow thiscap to size 5 or 6 before the settler. 

On picks:

• Holy cow India! 10 choppable forests not counting the deer,  some conveniently placed between resources, and so much to do for workers.
  
• Inca... doesn't seem like a perfect storm,  but should work fine if we manage to split off all that food.
  
• Khmer won't need iron for elephants, minor plus. And the techs are great.
  
• We need all the techs, so mysticism is a drawback,  and also Agri because other techs are more expensive. Also a drawback for Inca because we need AH and BW before Pottery.
  
• I'd be wary of picking Huayna if not paired with Inca or India. Would prefer Hannibal or Vicky if you want FIN, although here I kinda like IND better,  so... Augustus? De Gaulle? You already mentioned Qin...
  
•  what if we don't get one of our desired civs? Hunting/Mining besides Khmer are Ethiopia,  Germany,  Russia... I don't like any of those, and neither Persia or Zulu with Agri/Hunting. Myst doesn't have the palace beakers anymore... so maybe CHM Ethiopia so the monuments don't obsolete? (if you reach Astronomy with CHM, do you lose the monument happy?). I don't feel that we're in a position to aim for Germany's or Russia's (great) late game boni. So just any random Hunting or mining civ that you enjoy? Well I suppose that would be Mali, and with IND I support that.
  

[Miguelito]

Somehow lost a few bullet points I had written
In short, FIN is pure mid to late game here, so not as excited, IMP can do a lot with tile sharing, chops and whips so pick Justinian , I don't like PRO but it has the river connection in its favour here.

Also if we go IND we should consider now which wonders we'd want. I would not aim for more than 2, and not both very early. Stonehenge seems good if not de Gaulle. Mids are always good but you'd likely want to find stone first. Oracle... MC isn't as attractive because of the cost reduction in the mod and because we likely don't care about Colossus Ange early triremes- is that an argument against IND overall? Seems like there id's a lot of food for monarchy, and use have wine, so that could be worthwhile. Next on my list would be MoM, and we have the dyes already.

[Charriu]

so maybe CHM Ethiopia so the monuments don't obsolete? (if you reach Astronomy with CHM, do you lose the monument happy?)

I actually don't know what happens with the CHM happiness on Astronomy. If you test it let me know.

[Amicalola]

Oh wow, yeah that's about as lush as it gets!

Gah, it's not especially conducive to Inca, all my theorycrafting is wasted!

Yeah, preferences trend earlier with that, I agree with both of you. IMP, PRO, IND, and CHM all look particularly desirable, with FIN still being good but no longer near-essential. Thanks for all the thoughts guys, they're super helpful.

Inca as a civ I might still take as a backup if no one else does, but it doesn't exactly look as though irrigation is sparse, at least in this area, so I agree that at least Khmer, Mali, India (FAST WORKERS are nuts for this many forests), and China probably all take prio. We'll see how I feel in 12 hours though.

As far as other civs, I also had the thought that Hunting/Mining seem like the Nuts start techs, and at least one of them seems VERY nice, which makes Inca further less appealing. Khmer get a big boost for that, and Mali a small one for Mining and useful Wheel. Mysticism and Agri seem like the worst, right (we want to research, not start with, cheap AGRI in this version)? Of the other Hunting/Mining civs you typed, I agree I'm not sold, so I guess ideally it's either Khmer, or a civ with one of Hunting/Mining. One question about Inca before the dream dies: Do you guys think the terrace value is more in the cheapness or the irrigation?

Leaders, hmm, Churchill, Qin, Victoria, Hannibal, Huayna, Cyrus?, Charlemagne?? What are your thoughts on the latter two?