[LURKERS] Why has nobody started this thread so far?

[civac2]

Miguelito is paying 46 gpt civic maintenance with a mere 9 cities?

[Charriu]

No he's paying 43 in total maintenance. But just to be sure that I don't have another error in my tracking tool I asked him about that screen.

[civac2]

ORG only halves the civic maintenance.

[Charriu]

That's true but there is more to it. It halves the maintenance of every single civic column.

Take this example.

Government 2
Legal 4
Labor 5
Economic 7
Religion 3
= 21

With ORG on Emperor
Government 1
Legal 2
Labor 2
Economic 3
Religion 1
= 9

With ORG on Monarch
Government 0
Legal 1
Labor 1
Economic 2
Religion 0
= 4

All thanks to integer calculation

[civac2]

I don't quite understand the example. The 0.95 modifier with associated rounding on Monarch would also operate without ORG.

Still the rounding would make a significant difference early. You'd need the base cost (Emperor+) of a civic rise to 4 before it's not rounded away comletely anymore, right?

[Charriu]

You are right the 0.95 modifier applies every time and yes the rounding does make a significant difference in the early turns

[NobleHelium]

Not sure what vanrober is thinking trying to take scooter's capital. Even if he takes it down it leaves his empire in a ridiculous shape to be cleaved in two by an angry Ruff.

[NobleHelium]

That's true but there is more to it. It halves the maintenance of every single civic column.

Take this example.

Government 2
Legal 4
Labor 5
Economic 7
Religion 3
= 21

With ORG on Emperor
Government 1
Legal 2
Labor 2
Economic 3
Religion 1
= 9

With ORG on Monarch
Government 0
Legal 1
Labor 1
Economic 2
Religion 0
= 4

All thanks to integer calculation

Is the 21 the regular Monarch cost without ORG?

[Tarkeel]

First off, this post might seem very critical, but I'm just picking at any loose threads for a better overall analysis. I really appreciate all the work you're doing here.

Total Commerce

We now left the early turns were commerce alone is a good indicator of someone doing well. Remember this is only the sum of all worked commerce yield tiles + trade yield + anything else that gives extra commerce yield. Not included are any specialists providing beakers or gold or anything other that gives gold directly like shrines.

What is your reasoning for excluding specialists and shrines? WHile I don't think either has been a large factor in this game, they most certainly can form the backbone of an economy.

If we look at both values together we get the following ranking:
(...)
Now keep in mind that no specialist, shrines or modifiers of other sources are included in these numbers, so the overall value of these numbers can most certainly be disputed.

EDIT: I've tricked myself again. I've named this value after the name in the code. There it is called "Total Maintenance", but actually it is the "City Maintenance" as shown in the F2 screen. For the real Total Maintenance you have to add up this "City Maintenance + Civic Maintenance and Inflation. I adjusted my numbers above accordingly. Also I would have liked to do this in a table, but I was not able to make it into a satisfying table.

Given that most of the income sources come with associated expenditures, I think it's best to look at the net economy as you did here. You might be better off including an image of a spreadsheet, linking to the raw data.

Financial Bonus

Next we look at the actual Financial Bonus. As a disclaimer just as last time, here I collected all the extra commerce a player (would) have gained if he was working Financial tiles. For example if you worked a coast tile you normally gain 2 commerce and 3 commerce with FIN. In this case my tool notes down 1 extra commerce. You will also find that I am tracking the CtH implemenation of Financial as well as the normal BtS implemenation for comparison.

You have to be careful in extrapolating how much commerce someone would gain if they had been FIN, as that is likely to affect which tiles they are working and which improvements are built. The way you're doing it the only way to gather the data, you just have to take care in what you're actually measuring.

[Charriu]

First off, this post might seem very critical, but I'm just picking at any loose threads for a better overall analysis. I really appreciate all the work you're doing here.

Total Commerce

We now left the early turns were commerce alone is a good indicator of someone doing well. Remember this is only the sum of all worked commerce yield tiles + trade yield + anything else that gives extra commerce yield. Not included are any specialists providing beakers or gold or anything other that gives gold directly like shrines.

What is your reasoning for excluding specialists and shrines? WHile I don't think either has been a large factor in this game, they most certainly can form the backbone of an economy.

First of critic is always welcome. As for why I did not included specialist etc. The purpose of my tracking tool is mainly to get a better feeling of how good FIN, PRO, ORG and AGG are in comparison to each other. FIN and PRO both deal with Commerce, while AGG and PRO mainly with gold. I've only included the Total Commerce tracking to see how much FIN and PRO contribute to the overall commerce output. 
The goal is to generate data to make a better judgement for the balancing of the mod. The added side effect is that I can give you overviews like these. But I will see that I might add a Total Gold and Total Science output in future PBs for your entertainment.

If we look at both values together we get the following ranking:
(...)
Now keep in mind that no specialist, shrines or modifiers of other sources are included in these numbers, so the overall value of these numbers can most certainly be disputed.

EDIT: I've tricked myself again. I've named this value after the name in the code. There it is called "Total Maintenance", but actually it is the "City Maintenance" as shown in the F2 screen. For the real Total Maintenance you have to add up this "City Maintenance + Civic Maintenance and Inflation. I adjusted my numbers above accordingly. Also I would have liked to do this in a table, but I was not able to make it into a satisfying table.

Given that most of the income sources come with associated expenditures, I think it's best to look at the net economy as you did here. You might be better off including an image of a spreadsheet, linking to the raw data.

Yeah, I should do the image next time. The link to the raw data is provided in my post in the beginning.

Financial Bonus

Next we look at the actual Financial Bonus. As a disclaimer just as last time, here I collected all the extra commerce a player (would) have gained if he was working Financial tiles. For example if you worked a coast tile you normally gain 2 commerce and 3 commerce with FIN. In this case my tool notes down 1 extra commerce. You will also find that I am tracking the CtH implemenation of Financial as well as the normal BtS implemenation for comparison.

You have to be careful in extrapolating how much commerce someone would gain if they had been FIN, as that is likely to affect which tiles they are working and which improvements are built. The way you're doing it the only way to gather the data, you just have to take care in what you're actually measuring.

I'm fully aware that a FIN player has different strategies then a non-FIN player. This is best shown in how good Mr. Cairo is working towards the benefit of FIN. The problem is if I only observe the FIN players my data base shrinks. I think it's also fair to say that a non-FIN player would work even more commerce tiles if they were a FIN player. Therefore I think we can assume that the numbers I'm tracking are a bottom line of what they would do with FIN. If you look at my raw data you will also see that I separated the FIN and non-FIN players. I think there is some value in the additional data, but like you said I have to be careful with that.

At the same time I also have to be careful with regards to the game state. Let's say naufragar would be FIN. At this point in time we would have to disregard all the data we generate from him as his empire is in decline and not an example of a working economy.