[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Miguelito]

Bummer about the island, but we've had other priorities, which were achieved, and you can't have it all
I feel like we should keep at least a bit of protection on a road between Espresso Martini and MM so we don't get sniped in the north, that's a bit annoying.
Did we have any hammers into the Oracle yet, to get some gold out of it? I see those forests by MM as a bit of a defensive liability, would not mind to just chop them (well the ones facing Lewynn) for settlers/ workers/ useful infra, if we don't have a concrete plan for a wonder to be built within the next 20t.

About circumnav, I understand this map was advertised as a follow up to pb52? In which case it wouldn't be available pre optics, as it should (or did I miss the news of someone getting it already?).
Still worthwhile to send a workboat west for trade routes and map knowledge.

Mjmd I'd prefer for you to take the turns, thanks.

[Mjmd]

I'm going to need some worker names to go with signs please. After you place I'll try logging in today and see if I have questions.

Circumnav is possible. Forget who, but someone got right Amica? So we've been bleeding value for a while now.

On the one hand that city is a border city, on the other hand all that river and financial....... I want to make it into a monster commerce city (with some prod on the side). Yes it is a grow naturally city and not a whipping city. But you are reaching the point where that is fine.


Agree with Mig about the island. I like mainland as priority. You can go take that island at some point.

[Amicalola]

Yep, I'm going to roll the turn in a few hours and I'll make proper detailed instructions then.

Commodore got circumnav really early! Like T60 or something. No one has since.

Border city was another reason I was considering making it a production city actually. For now I am going to build a farm there (one 4-food tile is never bad) to help get it started, and we can decide from there.

EM and Moscow Mule, I'm going to build a road exactly there starting very soon, yep. EM and Moscow Mule will have to be dual protection now.

On the one hand I think we're playing pretty ok (we're average right now, but I think above average in 20 turns), but on the other hand we're running out of room and have 2 wide borders and a choke-border too (maybe even one with SD if we take that land bridge). Most other people have 2 total from what I can tell. I'm not seeing how we turn this into a good strategic position without Jowy and Civac both looking the other way for 50 turns while we conquer Lewwyn. And that will be near-impossible thanks to elephants. And conquering Jowy/Civac doesn't really work because A) They are both stronger right now, where Lewwyn is about equal) and B) they both have other side neighbours, so then we are still middle position.

I dunno this is rambling a bit, but from our map position I'm struggling to turn this into a win inside my head.

[Amicalola]

It's actually even worse if there are serious islands out in the fog (bad even if not). We have about as much land as everyone else from what I can tell, and even to get that we've had to step on the toes of Civac, Lewwyn, Jowy and apparently SD if we get the city I'd like down south. Take away maybe 1 city per person (settling our 'fair share' of the land) and we actually end up with LESS land than everyone else AND the central position. Plus that's assuming there aren't any major islands in the fog.

I'm frustrated and just having a vent, but I really do think we drew the short straw with this spot. Like, imagine getting Lewwyn or SD's start and how safe everything would be.

I hope I'll realise this is all 'grass in greener' when I read their equally valid complaints after the game.

[Mjmd]

Sucks being in the middle. I do think way to win is through Lewwyn. Probably while they fight SD. Open borders with Civac and Jowy with scouts being in each others territory will help.

Edit; the one hting about islands is they are very vulnerable late game. The one near us is even in the early game for that matter.

[Amicalola]

One difficulty we're going to face is what to do if we theoretically do conquer Lewwyn. 

If it happens, it'll be because Superdeath helped us. We're stronger than him now, and the logical course of action would be to then devour Superdeath too, and have a huge backline (we're talking very lategame here). 

Except, if he's just helped us take out Lewwyn, and we've been sending copper/copper and fish/fish deals the whole game, I'm not really sure how we do that without a) feeling shitty, b) looking shitty and c) being shitty. But it's the only logical option we'd have at that point, because Superdeath would ONLY border us, so we'd never be safe from him. This is way overthinking it (I'm in an anxious, overthinky mood, if you couldn't tell) but anyway there's another concern. At least that one is entirely my own fault, not the map's. 

Y'know, maybe it's a good thing I'm taking a break for a few days. I'm definitely being unnecessarily negative right now. Feels like I need to reset my head.

[Mjmd]

Most of those deals are very much seen as in the near term from my understanding. I don't think anyone would take them as binding throughout the game.

If it helps in PB51 SD sent me a fish for fish deal alongside an extortion payment (which I made). He then attacked in 2 turns.........

[Amicalola]

We have lost the barb city to 2 losses each of which we should have won. First an axe killed our full health promoted fortified axe at 20% odds. Ok fine I will whip a chariot, that's a shame but oh well; lucky I prepared.

Then the axe kills our chariot too, at 40% odds (we couldn't attack out because there was also an archer and a warrior, + axe was on forest). Ok fine, that's why we whipped a second chariot. The same turn, a warrior suicides into other chariot at 3.8% (!!!) odds and loses, but puts our chariot at .5 health, ready for the axe to clean up. Cannot whip a second time. Retreat with final 0.5 chariot in the face of the Uber-Axe and the archer.

Statistically, we shouldn't have even needed to whip the chariot out. That we will STILL lose the city is ridiculously low odds.

And yes, now everyone else in the game gets to laugh at the noob who lost a city to the barbs. Great. I am fucking disgusted right now. I never want to play in a game with barbarians again.

[Mjmd]

First an axe killed our full health promoted fortified axe at 20% odds.

All of that, but especially the above show why barbs are just a stupid idea in multiplayer games. If it makes you feel better I had 5 barb axes in my lands at the same time in PB52 which disconnected my gold and multiple times one of my wheats.

Just have to pull yourself back up.

Also, that sounds like quite a barb horde. Very rare for that much concentration. Pictures please. Also curious why you didn't whip an axe instead of a chariot in there.

[Amicalola]

Will post a picture in a bit. Chariot because we only had 2 turns of warning and not enough hammers to get 5/35 into an axe (best I could do was 2/35). I actually originally made it an axe but realised if it came to it I wouldn't be able to whip anything except a chariot.

Picture after our retreat: