[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Amicalola]

Civac is very tied up right now, but I have a scout in his land just in case! Jowy is taking the opposite approach and building zero military (seriously his power graph makes me look prepared by comparison). Right now, both of these borders are basically undefended because I feel we can risk it, but I will begin moving some of the less helpful units back there to at least do some smoke-and-mirrors defense.

Doing lots of whipping! Thanks for stressing that, both of you, I probably wouldn't have done enough otherwise. We are going to settle a filler production city in 2 turns, and then probably all war stuff until the war is over. Making a market in Pisco, but only because it has many multipliers and food, and low prod. Will be chopped then triple-whipped (unless this is really dumb? I'm so greedy I can't help myself!). Then units there too.

Lewwyn built Moai on that island.   Now I really wish we'd raced him there. ScooberStrike comes first on account of its low defense, but that island is pretty high priority now since it's a commerce AND production powerhouse. Will require a lot of investment, but only defended by axes/spears/archers, so a stack with some axes and elephants should be able to bombard and eventually take. Call it in 15 turns(???). Maybe I can get it sooner if we decide to go for that island instead of the ScooberStrike. It's definitely more valuable, just also MUCH harder to crack since walls as well.

I have also 2-whipped a stable with overflow at EspressoMartini, which will build/whip elephants repeatedly for a long time, I think. Maybe a sentry chariot too.

Power is climbing rapidly. My God I'm sure lurkers are going crazy with my dumb decisions but this is all so exciting.

[Mjmd]

Check culture and see how much progress he is getting there. Where are your galleys now? / is the canal built yet? Maoi make that island worth a lot more to deny.

Just as an fyi the only reason to ever bombard is in this scenario where your going back for more troops. Usually you just send cats to their deaths to get odds with your other units.

I do recommend a sentry chariot or 2. That way you can dive it in before attacking if / when your thinking of doing that. BTW this would be the main reason not to go for the island is if you just want to get a large stack to go smash smash. Mostly you shouldn't be building anything but elephants and cats atm.

[Amicalola]

Hmm, how do I check culture in an enemy city?

Good to know about bombarding!! I'll keep that in mind.

Galleys are basically ready, sitting in or outside EspressoMartini. Canal built next turn! Torn between attacking Moai city now or doing ScooberStrike first, but leaning towards strike so that we can build up a bigger army to attack Moai, and especially some more galleys (I think we will need at least 4 ships, maybe 5, and we currently have 3).

So far, the biggest lesson I've learnt from this war is how much more preparation I should have done in the preceding 20 turns. I would have 100% been a sitting duck for Civac or Lewwyn or Jowy if they'd attacked. Too used to running circles around AIs.

We also finished Calendar this turn, and I think I am going to research MC next for the forges. Then probably Monarchy for happiness. I would do Monarchy first, except I think I am going to delay the golden age to build infrastructure after this war ends. Maybe that's optimistic though, might take too long. Have to decide in the next 5 turns.

Edit: Would you be building barracks right now? Or skip. I have been, but now I'm worried that's a silly thing to do..

[Mjmd]

I would not be building barracks right now. 50 hammers is an extra cat which will do a lot more short term than 10% strength on maybe 2-3 units that will fight this war. If they are near completion let them, but maybe a tiny bit of 

I mean pre construction it is hard to prepare too much, so don't beat yourself up.

I don't know you current forces, so which target first is up to you. More pictures! Label what is in the maoi city. My gut is you don't need a ton as long as you bring along 2-3 cats and 3-5 elephants (make sure initial force has at least 1 axe). I wouldn't think you would need more than 4 galleys unless he has a ton in there and land in 2 waves. At that point it might be more beneficial to poke at the mainland, but that is obviously risky with cats in the mix (ie sentry chariot needed). I would also have a sentry chariot down near SD. Also why I felt the islands weren't as important because you can bring up cats and forces in a surprise vs him where as mainland that is harder to do. Really depends what your goals are for the war. Is it to raze 1 city and take another or are you going for the knock out punch (again information required from scouting / situation on the ground).

You can't directly check culture, although if your really good at math and the underlying way culture is laid down, and have been keeping track of buildings in your opponents city for their culture generation you can figure it out. For those of us (me) who don't have the knowledge / care, just keep checking the percentage in your water tiles and see how fast they are going down. I would mainly care about him being able to see staging area.


Tech path is very much based on how long you think war will go / golden age timing. Metal casting is a fairly safe option. You might need triremes if you stay at war and if you do make some gains and then decide to peace out building forges everywhere that has natural production > 8 hammers is recommended (I've even built in low production cities, but that is a rare case and some of those instances were due to mercantilism helping get to 8)

[Amicalola]

Was going to make a more detailed post this turn with pictures, then remembered I can't login after I play my turn during a turn split. D'oh! 

Next turn

I am ok at maths, but I don't think that good. Or maybe rather don't care, like you, enough to spend ages working it out. He can see all of our northern coast already, and his borders will get bigger not smaller, so I don't think it matters too much here. I was worried about him seeing the staging area for Scooberstrike as well, so I have sneakily moved all 3 galleys consistently so that he can only see 1 per turn in the city, and neither of the other two. Hopefully he will just think it is one galley, and not worry. ScooberStrike actually happens in like 3-4 turns!!

Unfortunately I am dumb, and we can't actually make chariots right now because I am lending SD our horse (Lewwyn took his only source a while ago, and I felt it was more important for SD to have it than us). Might have to cancel that, at least for a few turns. Sorry SD...

I have been thinking about goals, since I read your post last night. Overall there are two broad ones separated into 2 separate timeframes. I'll go into more detail tomorrow, when I myself have figured out the concrete details. You're right that it's important.

Yep, MC was also for triremes, forgot to say! Our galleys are pretty vulnerable right now.

Shrine comes in 3 turns! Circumnavigation is huge! Calendar resources being connected! Loan payments stop in 5 turns! Cash money!

[Amicalola]

T115-119 (0-100 AD)

The Situation
Alright, so: 


This is our current stack in the north, minus 3 swords and the many catapults and elephants that are starting to walk in that direction. Will be MUCH bigger in 10 turns, as you'd expect. I'm not 100% sure how big it needs to be. You can see two galleys on the stone-fort, with another one on the lake a tile behind, and a 4th ready to be whipped at Moscow Mule IF NECESSARY. 



Here is 'Muckspout,' Lewwyn's uber-Moai city. As you can see, it is very well defended, by 7 units and walls. Crack-able, but would take time.



Here is Scobberlotcher, the target of the impending ScooberStrike. It has generally had 2 archers +1 mounted unit in it consistently for the last 5 turns. If that unit is an elephant, we need 3-4 galleys, while if it is a horse archer, we need 2 galleys (according to Vodka).

With that in mind, it's time for...


The Overall War Goals
The way I see it, we have two overarching goals for this conflict, one of which is the logical extension of the other. Broadly speaking, this can be summed up two ways:

Goal 1: Delay + Harass (~T115-135)
This is twofold. First of all, we can't let Lewwyn use all of his units on the SD border, because then he will kill SD. The original reason I went into this war so unprepared and early (besides my anger  ) was to force Lewwyn to split his units. We can fight a small Lewwyn, but not a big one. It is also the reason I am sending SD horses, as our own game counts on his game continuing. So far, this seems to be working, as Lewwyn and SD are yet to fight any major battles. I have to hope that's because Lewwyn is too spread out to attack. 

However, this is not only goal in this stage, hence 'harass.' I have come up with two operations that are costly to Lewwyn and gain us something (gold or a city), without requiring TOO many units or commitment. The first of these is the ScooberStrike, which will be covered in more detail below. The second is an attack on Lewwyn's Moai island, which will have to come later, probably about T128(?), as we will need the galleys to return. This will be done in 2 waves of 8 units each, with some bombardment happening in the meantime. I would expect Lewwyn to have at least 10 units there by then, including whipping, so 16 of our own will hopefully be enough. By then, our stack will theoretically be large enough for Goal 2.

Goal 2: Attack. Win? Profit? (~T135-???)
This is where we take a massive stack of Elephants, Catapults, and Junk, and we ram it into Bobolyne, then Cumberworld. This counts on SD holding a significant number of Lewwyn's troops hostage here, as we have done to Lewwyn at the moment.  I imagine ours and Lewwyn's games are decided at the battle in Bobolyne, since if we lose we will be quickly torn apart, and if we win Lewwyn will (hopefully!) be gassed and torn apart by us and SD. 

I have, quite literally, zero experience at MP combat in this stage, so I will probably be posting a lot. There will be endless comical mistakes for lurkers to enjoy, and probably countless over/underestimates of everyone involved for lurkers to facepalm at.

Biggest worry with this stage is that it just takes FAR too long, as Jowy builds an army and/or Civac turns around, and either rams into our exposed flank. We are limited to 1-movers, as elephants/cats are our best units anyway, as well as sending SD our horse. Dunno what to do about this, as we can't attack before about T130 anyway, and even if successful I would predict a conquest time of 25 turns at best. 



The ScooberStrike
Yes, I know the name is dumb, but I can't help myself. 

The Galleys will stage off of the fish you can see in the above screenshots. Lewwyn shouldn't be able to see this tile unless he specifically moves a unit onto that unroaded hill, and that seems pretty unlikely. There are two options for the ScooberStrike. 

- Option 1: We attack with 2 Galleys, carrying 3 Swords, and 1 Elephant/Catapult on T121 (2 turns from now). This is what I will do if Lewwyn has 2 units, or 2 Archers and 1 Horse Archer, in the city that turn.
- Option 2: We attack with 4 Galleys, carrying 3 Swords, 2 Elephants, and 3 Catapults on T122. This is what I will do if Lewwyn increases the defenses of the city by a significant amount. I can also be done with 3 Galleys (just don't whip the galley at Moscow Mule) if 2 is insufficient, but 4 is overkill. I'd probably take out 2 of the catapults then, as collateral would be less valuable. 

Either way, the city should be razed. This will be a relatively minor blow to Lewwyn's actual empire (though everything helps, right!). However, it will also be a blow to his morale, and a boon to our own. This being my first ever real attack in an MP game (other than those chariots), I'm really, really hoping it's successful. Will keep you guys updated!!

Edit: Why is Scoober before Maoi Attack?
Well, mostly because it's so much less defended and I'd already messed with the worker plans a bunch to make it happen. I also think Scoober gets less likely to succeed with every turn that passes, as Lewwyn can send random units there, while the Moai city is far more isolated and will be only slightly more difficult to take in another 10 turns. Scoober's borders are also going to expand quite soon, and once they do, a zero-warning attack becomes impossible.

[Lazteuq]

This is certainly fun to lurk. I wish more people gave their Military Operations memorable names like that.
Do you expect to have more medieval units for Goal 2? If so, which tech path?

[Mjmd]

Can you demand your own horses back from SD? I actually have no idea lol.

Staging point you can use for Muckspout is 1N of Martini. you then drop off 8 units and go back to get more. He can't see that tile or the city as an fyi. The most likely tile to flip culturally would be 1W of fish for tiles to watch. BTW if you ever have a doubt what enemy can see just create it real fast in world builder with you being the enemy. However, at the point you have the forces to take this you should probably be diving in. UNLESS**** you think he has enough to punish you. Also after lighthouse put some hammers into an emergency whip in Fluffy Duck (not that the city is that valuable but still)

You are 100% right that time is not on your side. However, even weakening him would be a good short term goal. You're going to have to hope Gav slows down Civac. I doubt SD can build up enough to break Lewwyn, but it is really hard to fight a 2v1, so as you stated hopefully he is holding down a lot of troops.

Put some # of spears you have on the northern front in Moscow Mule for my sanity. No reason not to build up 25% fortification bonus on a couple.

Why is whiskey sour building a work boat?

[Amicalola]

This is certainly fun to lurk. I wish more people gave their Military Operations memorable names like that.
Do you expect to have more medieval units for Goal 2? If so, which tech path?

Thanks, I'm glad!  Also good question, I have been pondering that myself. On the one hand, better military units are just objectively better for fighting, but on the other hand, I've been trying to weigh up their usefulness with the time expended, and also delaying other things. Part of the problem is that MC and Monarchy are both mandatory (I think), before I research any new stuff. Maayyybe Monarchy could wait. But if we list the actual units:

Not helpful = Not Helpful Enough in this situation to justify bee-lining the tech.

Longbows - Great for defending, but I'm hoping to do the opposite here. Not Helpful.
Crossbows - Great for attacking sometimes, but probably not against an army with a core of Ballista Elephants. Not helpful.
Macemen - Decent against Lewwyn's troops (equal odds vs BEs, though more expensive), but requires TWO expensive techs. And expensive to produce. Not Helpful short term.
Knights - Maybe if I was Civac. Unfortunately I'm still me, so these are wayyy too far away. Not Helpful short term. 
Trebuchets - Serious question: are these worth it in MP. Like I actually don't know. Do people build these? 
Pikemen -  Great against BE's (we don't even have any horses in our stack  ). Requires MC, Machinery, Engineering. Maybe?? I am researching MC anyway right now.

Overall, Pikemen feel like the only option that is reasonable, so after MC and *maybe* after Monarchy, Engineering is probably where we go next. Would take 15-20 turns though, so it won't be ready for the initial stack attack anyway. Will require input from more experienced ded-lurkers though. Speaking of:

Can you demand your own horses back from SD? I actually have no idea lol. 

Staging point you can use for Muckspout is 1N of Martini. you then drop off 8 units and go back to get more. He can't see that tile or the city as an fyi. The most likely tile to flip culturally would be 1W of fish for tiles to watch. BTW if you ever have a doubt what enemy can see just create it real fast in world builder with you being the enemy. However, at the point you have the forces to take this you should probably be diving in. UNLESS**** you think he has enough to punish you. Also after lighthouse put some hammers into an emergency whip in Fluffy Duck (not that the city is that valuable but still)

You are 100% right that time is not on your side. However, even weakening him would be a good short term goal. You're going to have to hope Gav slows down Civac. I doubt SD can build up enough to break Lewwyn, but it is really hard to fight a 2v1, so as you stated hopefully he is holding down a lot of troops.

Put some # of spears you have on the northern front in Moscow Mule for my sanity. No reason not to build up 25% fortification bonus on a couple. 

Why is whiskey sour building a work boat?

I could cancel the deal for a couple turns to build 2-3 chariots. Although we really rely on SD remaining in the game both mentally and literally, so I'd be worried about jeopardizing either.

Oh, I must've misunderstood how ocean vision works! That's great! Well, it's annoying because maybe I should have attacked Muckspout first, but oh well. Still a net positive. Yep, I'll put some hammers into an archer or axe at Fluffy Duck. 

Gav vs Civac is the most plausible way I see for this conflict to be doable. On the bright side, I don't think Gav vs Civac is super unlikely! 

Spears: sent.

Work Boat is for the southern filler city's fish (second ring). Finishes in perfect time to connect with expanded borders, and Lewwyn's sea presence to be much lower thanks to the ScooberStrike. I think it is worth 30 hammers to connect a 5-6 food tile, even in hot war. Thoughts?

[Mjmd]

Ocean vision is tricky. Not going to lie I usually look for someplace in my own empire that is similar or create in world builder a lot. Caring about vision is definitely one of those big jumps from single player to multiplayer (one which I haven't fully mastered myself). At one point I had a vision article book marked, but can't find atm.

I had forgotten that city had a fish, which actually helps justify it. I may have been too harsh on it before.