[PB58] Tarkeel and Amicalola's rule through fear

[Lewwyn]

Are you sure about that? MoM is borderline broken but it should fall to whoever gets the tech first most of the time, at least if there is marble.

ORG is very useful early on as initially the rounding will cause it to save you a surprising amount of commerce. Later on it will fall behind FIN, possibly PRO too depending on the map. If there a lot of intercontinental trade routes ORG will remain better.

I think in particular the Forge bonus is one my favorite aspects of IND. Sure Getting calendar first with marble gets you a good shot at it, but IND makes it a bit easier. Of course I would pair it with a economic trait like Fin/PRO/ORG to make sure you're on the cutting edge of . I think EXP is a little weak without the worker bonus.

[Amicalola]

ORG/IMP with a courthouse unique sounds like a fun idea for sure. Have you considered a similar combo with the Holy Romans?

ORG/CRE or ORG/EXP could be fun with either civ as well. Maybe even ORG/CHA, although that's considerably slower. If you wanted to be cute (I'm sure it's been done, but could still be fun), you could go hard for an Oracle into Code of Laws, any of the combos could work great with Rathaus'. But Ziggurats could be much easier, and faster as well. Basically, I like either, and think both would be fun.

Otherwise I'll wait for your full write up to post any more thoughts.

[Tarkeel]

AGGressive

• Free Promotions (Combat I) for Melee and Gunpowder Units
  
• -25% unit maintenance
  
• +100% production for Barracks, Drydock, Jail
  

I think the free promotion does more to deter others from attacking you than it enhances your own attacks.
Goes well with Zulu or any civ that has a melee or gunpowder UU.
Verdict: Pass, not interested.


CHArismatic

• -25% xp for unit promotions
  
• +1 happy / city
  
• +1 happy from Monument, Broadcast Tower
  
• +100% production of Monument, Colosseum
  

This is one of my favorite SP-traits for super-promoted elite soldiers, which aren't quite as viable in MP. It will open up possibilities for producing fresh mass-promoted units though.
Goes well with your favorite warmongering civ; pairs well with Stonehenge.
Civs with Monument UB: Egypt, Ethiopia, Native America
Civs with Colosseum UB: Babylon, Greece, Maya
Verdict: Interested


CREative

• +2 culture / city
  
• +100% production of Theatre, +50% production for Library
  

Free culture has two main benefits: You're less limited to planting with first-ring food and on smaller maps you can claim more of the border. Basically, it lets you place better cities.
Civs with Library UB: Arabia
Civis with Theatre UB: Honestly, who cares?
Verdict: Interested


EXPansive

• +2 health / city
  
• +100% production of Granary, Harbor, Aqueduct
  

The main benefit is cheaper granaries, which you want to build in just about every city as early as possible for faster growth, starting the snowball rolling earlier. Basically, it lets you grow cities larger.
Civs with Granary UB: Inca
Civs with Harbor UB: America, Carthage
Civs with Aqueduct UB: Ottoman, Khmer
Verdict: Interested


FINancial

• +1 commerce on water plots with 2+ commerce and land plots with 3+ commerce
  
• +100% production of Bank
  

Short form is extra commerce on coasts, cottages (of varying growth) and some luxuries. Very strong if you can funnel into technological advantage.
Civs with Bank UB: England
Verdict: Interested


IMPerialistic

• +100% Great General Points
  
• +50% production of Settler
  
• +100% production of Stable
  

More cities! Which is always good, but you risk expanding too much. Oh, and slight synergy with horse-based UUs, as it's easier to spare the hammers on stables.
Civs with Stable UB: Mongols
Verdict: Interested


INDustrious

• +50% production of wonders
  
• +100% production of Forge
  

The main draw for me is cheaper forges. Although the wonder bonus has been stealth-buffed through reduction of wonder resource modifiers, most wonders will go to whomever gets the relevant tech first. Early Pyramids is a possibility though.
Civs with Forge UB: Mali, Japan
Verdict: Maybe, depending on start and civ choices


ORGanized

• -50% civic upkeep
  
• +100% production of Lighthouse, Courthouse, Factory
  

At first glance this seems very underwhelming, but the passive economic is significant, and with courthouses being cheaper it's more affordable to build them more places. Lighthouses and Factories are also decent to get a saving on.
Civs with Lighthouse UB: Vikings
Civs with Courthouse UB: Aztecs, Holy Roman Empire, Sumeria
Verdict: I want to test this on a larger map, which this seems to be


PHIlosophical

• +150% Great Person Points
  
• +100% production of University
  

The bonus translates into earlier Great People instead of more, as the cost for the next one keeps increaseing. To take advantage of this you probably need to have very good plans for bulbing techs or other good uses for the onces you get. Not something I plan to take advantage of.
Civs with University UB: Korea
Verdict: Avoid


PROtective

• Free promotion (City Garrison I, Drill I) for archery and gunpowder units
  
• +75% domestic trade route yield (new)
  
• +100% production of Walls and Castle
  

Traditionally a pure defensive trait that got a new economic boost that's very strong in the early game, the defensive boost is not to be underestimated. Also combines well with any gunpowder UUs.
Civs with Wall/Castle UB: Celts, Spain
Verdict: Interested


SPIritual

• No Anarchy
  
• +100% production of Temple
  

The bonus translates to making the most out of the civics available to you. I can see some great strategies with swapping to slavery/vassalage/theocracy and whipping out strong units before going back to more growth oriented civics. I don't think I can properly take advantage of this though.
Verdict: Avoid

[Tarkeel]

I think in particular the Forge bonus is one my favorite aspects of IND. Sure Getting calendar first with marble gets you a good shot at it, but IND makes it a bit easier. Of course I would pair it with a economic trait like Fin/PRO/ORG to make sure you're on the cutting edge of . I think EXP is a little weak without the worker bonus.

I think it's a mistake picking IND and thinking "In this game I will build wonders," it's more about the forges and incidental bonuses for wonders that would fall your way regardless. Possibly with Pyramids as an exception.

ORG/IMP with a courthouse unique sounds like a fun idea for sure. Have you considered a similar combo with the Holy Romans?

The Holy Romans have pretty awful starting techs (Hunting/Mysticism), and while the Landskneckt is decent, I think cheaper and earlier courthouses are better than superpowered ones.

ORG/CRE or ORG/EXP could be fun with either civ as well. Maybe even ORG/CHA, although that's considerably slower. If you wanted to be cute (I'm sure it's been done, but could still be fun), you could go hard for an Oracle into Code of Laws, any of the combos could work great with Rathaus'. But Ziggurats could be much easier, and faster as well. Basically, I like either, and think both would be fun.

I really like CRE but I think it's better on a tighter map than what's been ordered for this game. Likewise I think CHA could be a lot of fun, but other options might be better. I think a decent strategy for solid picks is taking one of the three economic traits (FIN/ORG/PRO) paired with one of EXP (for faster growth), CRE (for better cities) or IMP (for more cities). That's not to say that other options aren't good! Whenever feasible I prefer when my chosen UB has a production bonus from my trait combo.

Roosevelt (ORG/IND) of Japan would also be fun, I think Tatara sounds like an interesting building.

[Charriu]

I think in particular the Forge bonus is one my favorite aspects of IND. Sure Getting calendar first with marble gets you a good shot at it, but IND makes it a bit easier. Of course I would pair it with a economic trait like Fin/PRO/ORG to make sure you're on the cutting edge of . I think EXP is a little weak without the worker bonus.

I think it's a mistake picking IND and thinking "In this game I will build wonders," it's more about the forges and incidental bonuses for wonders that would fall your way regardless. Possibly with Pyramids as an exception.

Don't forget the wonder bonus also applies to national wonders. So you are guaranteed to profit from that bonus sooner or later.

Also another hidden bonus of CRE is on water maps, where you do not always have the hammers to produce a culture building soon.

[civac2]

If the map is big I like ORG quite a bit. However, early courthouses like the Sumerian ones are not worth it at all. It's trivially easy to get Code of Laws by the time courthouses become relevant. The best courthouse replacement is the Sacrificial Altar, Rathauses are alright but only if the starting techs of the Holy Romans are not a liability.

[Tarkeel]

If the map is big I like ORG quite a bit. However, early courthouses like the Sumerian ones are not worth it at all. It's trivially easy to get Code of Laws by the time courthouses become relevant. The best courthouse replacement is the Sacrificial Altar, Rathauses are alright but only if the starting techs of the Holy Romans are not a liability.

I think Sacrificial Altar screams to be paired with SPI, so you canswap into slavery for the entire game. Having slept on it, I'm starting to feel that both Rathaus and Ziggurat might be doubling down too much on one thing. Depending on where I am in the pick order (and of course on starting area), I think I'll want to pick a civ first. ORG is not usually a contested trait, and there are so many of the combinations that would be viable that I think it's better to pick civ first, and possible even reaction pick the second trait (Ie, no other IND leaders). With a large toroidial map water is likely to be a factor. It seems that most of the players are of the building type (with some notable exceptions), so this is a game that might go long.

Some civ-pick thoughts:

• Byzantium is always powerful, but also boring.
  
• England would be a good late bloomer, but we're already playing them in PB56.
  
• Germany and Russia could also be interesting as very late bloomers that have been changed in CtH.
  
• Dutch, Vikings and Spain would all do well on a water-heavy map.
  
• Asoka (SPI/ORG) of Aztecs would be a very interesting combination.
  
• Holy Roman Empire might just be a bit too much focus on maintenance.
  

Without knowing the impact of starting techs it's hard to say what's best, but I'm leaning towards the Dutch for now.

[Lewwyn]

I like org not just for the maintenance but also the cheap buildings, particularly if this is a wet map with a lot of lighthouse builds not to mention a leg up on GLH. I think pairing ORG/IMP might be fun and interesting, not sure you even need to go Aztec.

[Tarkeel]

Exactly, and IND/ORG might give an even bigger leg up on both GLH and Colossus. IMP/ORG is a very thematic fit though, so I still think Julius is my preferred leader.

[Tarkeel]

So, I managed to click into the spoiler thread from Charriu's request to have it stickied. Luckily, Pindi hadn't posted any of the fun stuff yet.