[PB58] Tarkeel and Amicalola's rule through fear

[Charriu]

I was thinking, if I should say something there or put it in spoiler

[pindicator]

So, I managed to click into the spoiler thread from Charriu's request to have it stickied. Luckily, Pindi hadn't posted any of the fun stuff yet.

One could argue there still isn't any fun stuff posted

[pindicator]

Here is your starting screenshot:



Anything outside the BFC can potentially change.

[Tarkeel]

Thanks Pindi, that looks like a very interesting start.

[Amicalola]

Thanks Pindi, this is a great puzzle!

[Tarkeel]

First impressions: This start is a lot less lush than most other RB games, with only two immediate food tiles. I must say I like it though, and the terrain gives some nice puzzles to figure out:

Tech requirements: Hunting is obviously needed to improve our strongest tile, but could be researched early. Fishing is good to pick up the clams early, especially if we go workboat first. With all those forests and lack of resources, Bronze Working is probably the most important worker-tech here. I think the cow is a red herring for a while, we might even want Sailing for an early lighthouse before Animal Husbandry.

Worker or workboat first? My gut says we should test building a WB, growing to size two and working 2x 4F+H tiles. Will need a few sims here I think.

Civilizations:

• Netherlands (Agri/Fish): Agriculture is a wasted tech in this start, so this would be purely for their late game UU/UB advantage.
  
• Vikings (Fish/Hunt): Both techs are useful at the start, and our UB will definitely come in play. Our UU might even manage to be relevant.
  
• Carthage (Fish/Mine): Useful starting techs, and Cothons could be strong on this map. Will need to be paired with EXP though, preferably also PRO.
  
• Germany/Russia (Hunt/Mine): Useful starting techs, and very late game UU/UB.
  
• Ottomans (Agri/Wheel): Hopeless starting techs, but cheap Hammams could be very handy on this map.
  
• Khmer (Hunt/Mine): If the start is anything to go with, Barays might actually be useful in this game. Will want to be paired with EXP though.
  
• Spain (Fish/Myst): Paired with a FIN leader, we might go for the monk game.
  

I still feel strongly about going with ORG, but there are several good candidates to match it with here. EXP/ORG Ottomans or Carthage, or even CHA for extra happiness. (And let's not forget IND; Colossus and GLH are both very good wonders here)

Pindi, can you confirm beaker costs for the early techs? Fishing should be 74, AH 149 and BW 179?

[Lewwyn]

We're not going WB first, eventually a lighthouse is going to make all those lake tiles amazing, but at the start ignore it. Worker first and straight onto the deer. Probably don't settle in place. Move 1E and settle, work deer while building a worker. If you settle in place worker takes 12t, move 1E worker takes 10 so you speed worker by 1. Additionally the worker moves direct onto the deer instead of having to move through a forest, saving a worker turn and gettign the deer improved a turn early. Also this move is forest neutral.

I think Hunting Mining BW are our first 3 techs. I agree about ORG particularly since we need a lighthouse in the cap sooner rather than later. Khmer gives hunt and mining and allows us to go BW first. This allows for worker to camp and then directly start chopping. I'm a fan. Also I don't think it's necessary to take EXP with Khmer just for the aqueduct bonus. The starting techs, nice UU and an okay UB even without the discount is worthwhile. I think FIN, PRO, IMP are all better than EXP. I would say IMP or FIN are most interesting.

[Lewwyn]

Also to clarify about WB first starts, you only want to do it when you've got fish. You want at least a 5f tile to be the first improved tile, and that clam is only 4f. Additionally you don't want to go WB first unless you've got some additional benefit like a 3F1H tile to work from the start and grow to 2 while also building the WB. If you're just building a WB with 5hpt working a PHF then you're not growing and you lose one of the only benefits of going WB first IMO. Also WB first is almost always worse than worker first because the worker improves a tile and then you have the worker to do other things. Basically you have an extra 6-8 worker turns, which is huge early game.

[Mjmd]

I would say IMP or FIN are most interesting.

[Tarkeel]

Thanks for your input Lewwyn!

You're absolutely right about moving the settler, I was thinking about after I went to bed last night. Even if we lose a productive turn, we gain a lot: Working our strongest tile from the start, saving worker turn moving towards it, and gain 5 tiles that could be better than the 5 we lose. The only other negative is moving the cattle to outer ring, which really shouldn't matter. Edit: I still would move the scout the opposite direction to the river mouth just to see if anything there looks promising.

There are some other options where WB first is acceptable, but we don't have that here. (If those whales were available early like in RtR, well, then they wouldn't be there)

We were discussing taking Roosevelt (IND/ORG) and going with the Vikings, or possibly even the Dutch for an extreme late-game advantage. FIN and CHA are also likely to be good on this map. Depending on what's picked before us, I think we should go civ first and leader on the return.