This thread is being so nice to lurk (maybe "be lurked" fits better?) already 
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[PB58] Tarkeel and Amicalola's rule through fear
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December 21st, 2020, 04:41
(This post was last modified: December 21st, 2020, 04:50 by Amicalola.)
 (December 20th, 2020, 19:45)Lewwyn Wrote: We're not going WB first, eventually a lighthouse is going to make all those lake tiles amazing, but at the start ignore it. Worker first and straight onto the deer. Probably don't settle in place. Move 1E and settle, work deer while building a worker. If you settle in place worker takes 12t, move 1E worker takes 10 so you speed worker by 1. Additionally the worker moves direct onto the deer instead of having to move through a forest, saving a worker turn and gettign the deer improved a turn early. Also this move is forest neutral. Thanks for the advice! That is quite interesting about the WB thing. However, this start may be an exception.  One thing worth noting is that with this start, our worker has literally nothing to do other than camp the deer before BW. This is true no matter of our starting techs. Going with the Khmer (best possible starting techs, though I'm less hot on the civ; they've been done to death by now. Still probably in our top 3 picks. ANYWAY), and going worker first, we actually waste 5 worker turns just waiting for BW (again, this is with the best possible starting techs). Meanwhile, with WB first, the worker comes out slower, and BW finishes 1 turn before the camp, but even so, that's only 2 turns with our worker 'wasted' (camping the deer instead of chopping, then moving to forest), whereas with worker first there are 6 turns, as mentioned earlier. While the camp and chops obviously each come later, the clams are netted far sooner, and we grow to size 2 much earlier. So I am wondering if this is the exception. It seems to waste less worker turns overall. Hmmm. Needs to be tested with the various tech options, and with more turns in mind, to be sure. Edit: Alternatively, we can go BW before fishing, but then we can't net clams for long after the WB is finished, and we also have nothing to chop unless we want to size 1 settler.
December 21st, 2020, 05:30
(This post was last modified: December 21st, 2020, 06:25 by Amicalola.)
Some Quick Tests I Did After Dinner
Note that these take purely the traits/techs into account, not the civ, as those don't matter yet. They are non-IMP. Also does not take into account potential new resources from moving (I think this possible, but unlikely); worker first gets a significant bonus if there is an improvable resource discovered. '31-2' or similar generally denotes a potential slavery revolt. But I think with some civs, WB first could be right here. Non-IMP KHMER: WB First, Fishing->BW, 1st settler out T27, 2nd worker out T31-2. Capital size 2. City2 unimproved. 2 forests chopped. +30ish commerce. Worker first, BW->Fishing, 1st settler out T26, 2nd worker out T30-1. Capital size 2. City2 unimproved. 3 forests chopped. Non-IMP DUTCH Worker First, Hunting->Mining->BW Settler came after T30, 2nd worker a ways off afterwards. Not worth considering. WB First, Hunting->Mining->BW 1st settler out T29, 2nd worker out T33-4. Capital size 2. City2 improving. 1 forest chopped. Not terrible??? 2nd worker can improve cows while growing to 3, 2nd city gets a head-start, more forests left in BFC. Non-IMP CARTHAGE Worker First, Hunting->BW 1st settler out T28, capital grows to 4 before 2-whipping 2nd worker on T32 (finish T33). 2 forests chopped. WB First, Hunting->BW Everything 1 turn faster than 'Dutch WB-First' (but only 1 turn). Non-IMP VIKINGS Worker First, Mining->BW 1st settler out T29. 2nd worker out T32-3. Capital size 3. City2 unimproved. 2 Forests chopped. WB First, Mining->BW 1st settler out T27. 2nd Worker out T31-2. Capital size 2. City2 unimproved. 2 forests chopped. Other Note: In all WB starts we gain 20-30 more commerce than Worker starts. Not a huge deal, but not nothing either. Also these all assume we move 1E. (December 21st, 2020, 04:41)Amicalola Wrote:(December 20th, 2020, 19:45)Lewwyn Wrote: We're not going WB first, eventually a lighthouse is going to make all those lake tiles amazing, but at the start ignore it. Worker first and straight onto the deer. Probably don't settle in place. Move 1E and settle, work deer while building a worker. If you settle in place worker takes 12t, move 1E worker takes 10 so you speed worker by 1. Additionally the worker moves direct onto the deer instead of having to move through a forest, saving a worker turn and gettign the deer improved a turn early. Also this move is forest neutral. Clam is only a 4f2c tile with wb until lighthouse. Deer is 5f1h and cow is 3f3H, both are 6 producing yield tiles. Ignore the clam until after these two for best production and snowball start IMO. If you go BW>AH as your first two techs then we should be able to go worker first (10t), Improve deer (1t move 4t camp), move to a forest (1t) and chop finish BW in 16t? Chop into second worker> move both workers to forests (new one goes W to PHF)> grow on warrior > chop 2 forests into Settler > swap back to warrior and grow to 2 > swap back to settler > more chops into settler 1 and 2 or mine the GHF N of deer or the PH W of cap first depending on how long AH takes. Only works with a hunting mining start. Not sure why you don't want to get the second worker out before T30~. Any civs with agr starting tech are straight out its useless and basically a blocker. If you take a fishing civ or a WB first start you're going to block yourself on tech too I think. You need hunting for the deer, but you need Mining>BW for chopping and for something for workers to do. So if we don't go Hunting mining -> BW then we're going to have a subpar start and a weaker snowball overall IMO. IF that was a fish and not a clam I would say WB first is viable, but its a clam.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
I think there's two (related) reasons for us to entertain WB openings: The possibility of picking a civ that doesn't start with Hunt/Mine, and the issue of wasted worker turns while researching the relevant techs.
Khmer probably has the fastest start here, but I think both Vikings and Dutch need a proper evaluation of just how much slower the start is, given their much more promising later game. Khmer has figured in most of the CtH games to date, and is a pretty stale pick for me at least. A WB opening is also slightly improved with a FIN leader such as Darius. (BTW; I really appreciate that you're pushing us on this, don't read my tone as annoyed) 
You can sim it out. Khmer power start vs workboat first. Try to make a thourough comparison between the empire states at turn 30ish (later is better). I see people using first settler timing as a benchmark. That's so coarse-grained it is close to useless.
Indeed, Amicalola did a first run of sims earlier, with more benchmarks than just earliest time of first settler. I'll do some runs myself later tonight of the more promising variants. Our main problem is that we're moving so we don't have full view of the BFC yet.
I've been working on a scenario for the Dutch, with Darius as leader. Working WB first, then growing to size three while working clams and whale we get Bronze Working before the camp finishes and we swap the whale for that. There's some trimming to be done, but I'm out of time for tonight, so I leave you with my notes:
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