[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Miguelito]

Logged in and placed a few signs, mainly to attenuate the general cottage cheese.

I think Whiskey Sour, Moscow Mule and Espresso Martini really should focus on production. I count a grassland farm as a production tile, either for whipping or to enable mines. We have no dedicated production city at this point, but a ton of nice cottage cities. But we'll need hammers to hang on them.

Also Daicquiri can work a priest instead of the cottage for 2 turns, then change to the sheep to break even on food while working 4 specialists. That way the GP should come out a turn earlier, if we want the GA asap (not sure where this discussion ended).

[Amicalola]

Logged in and placed a few signs, mainly to attenuate the general cottage cheese.

I think Whiskey Sour, Moscow Mule and Espresso Martini really should focus on production. I count a grassland farm as a production tile, either for whipping or to enable mines. We have no dedicated production city at this point, but a ton of nice cottage cities. But we'll need hammers to hang on them.

Also Daicquiri can work a priest instead of the cottage for 2 turns, then change to the sheep to break even on food while working 4 specialists. That way the GP should come out a turn earlier, if we want the GA asap (not sure where this discussion ended).

I like those ideas both! My thinking with the GA is that the war vs Lewwyn was going nowhere fast, and a war vs Civac would at best piss off another neighbour and get us dogpiled. So I think GA ASAP and OR/VASSALAGE is the plan, followed by a mixture of forges/markets and units afterwards depending on city. Thoughts? 

Hadn't considered plains watermills, but those could very nice at Whiskey Sour. 

It is 100% the kids. What happens is baby wakes up waking me up. Causes me to be tired the next day. I then take a nap to compensate. I then am not as tired when I SHOULD be going to bed. Baby then wakes me up again. It is just a cycle. My wife doesn't wake up easily, so it is usually me getting the baby at night. Like last night. Went to bed at 2am. Woke up two times. Up at 7:30 am. Will I take a nap today. You bet! Main problem is probably I take too long of naps. Scientifically 20-30 minute naps are supposed to be the best.

I know I shouldn't be, but I'm vaguely jealous. I've never been able to nap! Could you do it before you had kids?

[Amicalola]

Jowy just got a great artist. Not from music I think. I presume he is going to culture-bomb our jungle area with it, which will really suck.

Also, Lewwyn sent an offer of horse for war with Civac. So he clearly wants us to turn around and let him kill SD. But he might be right; Civac is going to win if there is not a dogpile. He's attacking and beating Gavagai in AT's land while Commodore fights Gavagai in the south. What do you guys think? Delay GA and move on Civac? GA and use it for military production? Open to suggestion. I haven't responded this turn but will next turn if we decide we are on board. I would definitely ask him to stop trading with Civac on condition.

[Amicalola]

Jowy is also getting our jungle tiles when by rights he shouldn't be. 1 city of his is beating 2 of ours. There is a theatre inside I think; he must be running artist specialists. Something also needs to be done about Jowy, but I don't know how. Commodore is fighting in the other direction. Jowy has 800 GNP right now!! In a GA but still very scary. He has also expanded out to 9 cities. Must be getting lots of islands. We could theoretically attack (he has lowest power in game right now), but he will just whip protective longbows and kill our stack. He or Civac is going to win, I think. Lewwyn and Us stalemated for too long vs each other. Whoops.

[Mjmd]

Gav falling to a 2v1 is probably the game. Does Civac have a scout in your land? Does Jowy have a scout in your land? Scout being anything zipping around.

At this point:
What is the most fun?
What do you think you'll learn the most from?


I don't remember taking tons of naps before kids, but I've always been 'able' to. Get older and more out of shape. Naps get easier.

[Amicalola]

They both have scouts not just in our land, but on our stack.

Most fun and most learning for me at this point would probably be trying to make some progress against Lewwyn. See if we can, even. At worst our stack gets torn up but I probably learn something in the process.

That feels a bit like throwing the game to Civac though (although I think he's probably won regardless from here, as you say). It also feels like being a jerk to Lewwyn. 

We could try to fight Civac, though he has both vision on our stack and also could probably crush us, and at worst defend easily I think. He'd have a lot of warning. 

Other option would be trying the GA peacefully and getting the most out of it, though I think by default that is less different to SP than fighting an offensive war. So less desirable from the 'learning/fun' perspective, more desirable from the 'don't be a dick' perspective.

As I have for the last 50+ turns, I feel accidentally stuck as a kingmaker. We can attack Jowy/Lewwyn and Civac definitely wins, or we can put all our effort into stopping Civac and Jowy (maybe) wins, or we can do nothing and Civac wins.

Torn. Going to bed now, but will think on it and decide overnight probably.

[Miguelito]

Easiest thing to hurt civac a bit would be if everybody cancelled OB with him. Would also resolve the issue of him scouting the stack. Do Lewynn and Jowy have OB with him? You could send mutual stop trading with civac offers. How many islands does he have?

Careful with markets, they are terribly expensive, hardly ever worth building for the gold bonus alone. How many market resources do we have, and do the cities need the happy?

[Mjmd]

Ya I mean giving open borders so you can attack one direction while leaving other flanks light is usually correct. Problem of course being when you want to go back the other way.

So what are outs for you to win is always a good question? Golden age and get infrastructure up? Take Lewwyn Maoi city to hopefully weaken down the line? Is the best line still to take out Lewwyn even though it doesn't look like Gav can stop Civac because of Commodores 2v1?

If you think your beyond a chance to win you have a couple of options. 1) have fun doing something. 2) play kingmaker
I don't think you win by attacking Civac if he has forewarning. Even if he doesn't your probably just giving other people a chance to win.
Without an established stack it would be interesting what Jowy builds to defend. If it is just protective longbows you could take cities with enough collateral.

Just saw Migs post. Cancelling open borders with Civac could at least force him to commit defensive forces. It however makes you a likely next target, but still might be the play as your going to be a target eventually if he keeps this up. Also, if you end up going for Jowy you can move at a diagonal for a couple of turns to make it look like your going after Civac. Send stop trading messages ect.

[Amicalola]

I think it's very slim bordering on nil, but our only path to victory right now would involve having a peaceful GA where we build forges everywhere, convert to Vassalage, and then crank out a tonne of units, before slamming them into Jowy/Lewwyn (probably Lewwyn; he's busy with SD still). Lots of pikes, catapults, axes. WE's less useful thanks to BE's.

Cancelling borders with Civac and asking everyone else to is not a bad idea (though Jowy actually has the better economy, I think). I agree that attacking Civac is not a good path to winning. Jowy is not much better, but is a but better. Civac either goes for us or Commodore after killing Gavagai, not sure which. Civac does have ALOT of islands, so it's less useful than it could be, but still.

So I guess we're going to GA ASAP, and do that? Goal is to have Engineering, Feudalism, then go for banking to unlock our cheap banks everywhere.

And I didn't know that about markets, but makes sense! I'll keep it in mind. Happiness very not-useful right now, so units will be built instead.

[Amicalola]

I should note that I will be MOSTLY growing cities until the GA ends, then whipping. That is the generally accepted best practice, right? Only thing I will whip is forges in some places.