[PB56] NobleHelium Tells It Like It Is

[Serdoa]

I'd like to reiterate on the point Noble is making. There is a stark difference if you do the best for YOUR civ in order to win or if you do the WORST for your civ in order to make someone else lose. What he does is kingmaking, which I thought is frowned upon by everyone actually. 

And just to be clear: Laz is deliberately losing and worsening his position in order to make our opposition stronger. You can't even argue that it makes no difference for him (which still would be bad btw because kingmaking and all that it entails) but in this case he is 

- gifting gold to Amica that he could use to upgrade units / tech further
- gifting cities to Gira by leaving them empty instead of defending them and getting more units from them

Even from our position we could see that he not just moved units out of cities and left them undefended for Gira to just walk in, we could watch as he moved units out of a city to sit them on a nearby tile which actually made those units susceptible to attack with no upside at all to him. Earlier units we saw we could argue if he a) even emptied the cities completely and b) if he moved those units away to defend against us. But that last example I gave? These units could have been kept in his city which they could have easily defended given the units Gira had nearby. He could have hold that city and produced more units out of them. Or he could have picked those defenders up the next turn with his galley and ferried them over to his island city. But he moved them out for the sole reason that Gira could take the city without losses. 

Compare that to vanrober who is doing everything in his power to not lose, even though there is no chance of winning for him.

Of course I was not around for quite some time, maybe times have changed, but I'm certain that back in the day no one would have considered such behavior even remotely acceptable.  And for good reasons, because we had enough fights over such behavior to get to the point we are today - why else do we have those rules for not gifting / trading cities, for not gifting units, basically for not giving away your empire and becoming a vassal.

[NobleHelium]

Just to comment further on the 20g that I gifted to vanrober. vanrober asked me for that gold directly and in accepting I was assuming it would make a significant difference in his defense. I would not have offered him 20g unprompted because from where I stand I don't have information that it would make a significant difference, and certainly I prefer to have 20g than to not have 20g.

In contrast I doubt Amica would ask Laz for 20 gpt, so I think it is much more likely that Laz offered it up himself, if it is indeed a gift with no strings attached. This is all secondary to whether the act occurred of course - who asked and who offered is definitely a secondary concern, but something that I thought worth mentioning.

[Ichabod]

The problem regarding these discussions is that, in the end, it comes down to the intent behind the actions. How do you differentiate between a "I gave gold to my enemy's enemy so that he can help me survive longer" and "I gave gold to my enemy's enemy because I want my enemy to lose"? The actions are the same, it's all about the intent behind it, as far as I can see. And how do you judge intent? Well, in the real world, we go to courts and all that stuff, it's messy business. But here, "going to court" is not worth the effort. We are here to have fun, not to work/do real life stuff. So, my rule of thumb is: just trust what the player in question is saying. If the intent is not malicious, I don't think we can really judge and criticize misguided decisions.

Of course, if the actions are too egregious, there's the possibility of "going to court" even here. But I don't want to be the one deciding what is "too egregious" and I bet there aren't many people interested in doing that as well (usually people get paid to do this   ).

By the way, this post is all theoretical, I'm not arguing about the specific situation in the game.

[NobleHelium]

The problem regarding these discussions is that, in the end, it comes down to the intent behind the actions. How do you differentiate between a "I gave gold to my enemy's enemy so that he can help me survive longer" and "I gave gold to my enemy's enemy because I want my enemy to lose"?

I'm not really arguing along these lines, although you can certainly argue using them. I'm arguing about whether Laz's position could ever be improved by such a gift. And I think the answer is no, and therefore the act is not acceptable.

[vanrober]

I will now rate and/or comment on the picks.  THIS IS ONLY ABOUT THE PICKS.  I am NOT ranking the players along with the picks this time, although there will also be some comments on the players.  Other than the clear winner in Victoria, these are NOT ranked in order.

Victoria (FIN/IMP) of England played by Amicalola

This is the best pick in this game.  I think stock exchanges and redcoats are both a bit overrated but banks are really quite cheap with FIN.  Fishing/Mining is a reasonable set of starting techs for this map, although it is not great for our start specifically.  But if he started with an inner ring PFH for example things become substantially different.

Nebuchadnezzar (IND/PHI) of Inca played by El Grillo

Pretty soon I will be able to spell Nebuchadnezzar thanks to CtH.  This is a very intriguing pick, using the civilization as a crutch for an expansion trait to pick an all-in ultra synergistic leader.  Will be interesting to see how it works out for him.  I might be inclined to experiment with Inca in a future game where there is a dry grain at my capital (this is not a hint to give me a dry grain in my next game - I prefer wet grains, thanks).  Grillo is certainly one of the better players in the game.

Catherine (CRE/IMP) of Mongolia played by giraflorens

Catherine was no doubt picked by mackoti and it has his fingerprints written all over it.  mackoti is particularly fond of CRE and he recognizes the power of IMP and CRE in the current RB map meta.  It is the equivalent of Suryavarman in BTS.  This is a good pick but we'll have to see how the lack of a pure economic trait works out for them.  mackoti is good at working the economic angle of CRE with its cheaper libraries, however.  Also mackoti has backdoored into countless Pitbosses and could be eyeing this game for a backdoor.  I generally despise backdooring into games, although it's not as bad as smurfing or abusing grey areas in the rules.  Mongolia is a pretty good civ, although I'm not sure it's that good for this game specifically.

Suleiman (IMP/PHI) of Khmer played by civac2

Interesting pick.  civac is used to single player and also used to base BTS with no bans.  He is very fond of stacks of elephants and catapults, which excel in single player and are also popular in the Civforum.de meta.  However things are a bit different here at RB.  Certainly that is a good defensive stack and can take a border city or two, but it's not necessarily the most effective way to expand your territory via war. (In Deity difficulty it can make the most sense to only aim for 1-2 cities because more would be very costly in maintenance.) Made a ridiculous vote for Restricted Leaders in the pregame, which everyone ignored and maybe someone other than me stifled a chuckle.  Anyway, it's clear why he picked the civ so that he gets access to normal unnerfed elephants.  Philosophical is also not a surprising pick, because SP players tend to be fond of making GP bulbing plans at the start of the game.  I prefer not to lock myself into a rigid gameplan, because no plan survives contact with the enemy.

Genghis Khan (AGG/IMP) of Rome played by Mjmd

Mjmd has finally decided to try something other than India and decides to mix it up with a relatively obvious AGG pairing.  Perhaps he's specifically trying to improve on his warring with this pick.  He may conquer a neighbor if he spawns next to one of the weakest players.  He is also improving quicker than I anticipated and I think he is legitimately one of the better players in this game now.  But I expect his pick to hamper him long term.  Rome is one of the best Fishing/Mining civs, either better or on par with England.  Also, I am NOT fond of how he posts (complains constantly, spams ellipses, general grating tone) and how he tries to call dibs on turn splits via PMs.

Gilgamesh (CRE/PRO) of Carthage played by Jowy
Wang Kon (FIN/PRO) of Spain played by Ruff_Hi
Washington (EXP/CHA) of the Ottomans played by Mr. Cairo

These are obvious synergy picks but overall I am not impressed by them.  Synergy improves the sum of the parts, but sometimes it's better just to have better parts.  I would have picked Mao as Jowy because cothons are more expensive than regular harbors.

Sitting Bull (PHI/PRO) of Byzantium played by Lazteuq

Byzantium is likely awful to start with in a start similar to ours.  He also has no expansion traits.  I expect he'll be squeezed by his neighbors and not build more than four cataphracts, if he gets there at all.  Good target for Mjmd.

Hello Noble and team!. Im really impresed by your game and i started today reading your thread (page 14 now) On Page 8 there is this post and i feel a bit excluded. Maybe you talk about me/my pick after? maybe i dont know, tell me if its like this. I would love to read the thoughts of a nice vet like you. Its been really instructive reading Serdoa on PB58 and the bit i read on this game gave me some good tips already (like reading Seven, i didnt even knew him until now) Also the importance of CRE, which i dont know to use at all. I used on PB51 just not to bother about Monuments, but didnt explote the eco part of it. I definitely need to learn more!

I ll keep tunned in here. Ill writte more questions if i have, like on PB52 on the pindicator's thread. (or even on Serdoa's thread on PB58)

It has been nice to play with you!

[NobleHelium]

Apparently I completely missed your pick in that post for some reason. That was not intentional. Really sorry about that. I'll post my thoughts shortly, but don't expect them to be lengthy.

[vanrober]

Im not worry about the lenght! just some thoughts would be nice to read. I need to read so much right now. HAHAHA

Anyway i hope you get your moving easy, and writte whenever you have time, i have so much to read already, so no rush at all

[NobleHelium]

Okay so about your pick. I think I meant to include it in the list of synergy combos near the end but maybe I accidentally deleted the line when I was moving things around or something. As compensation you get a longer explanation than the likely one-liner that would have originally been included!

Charlemagne was certainly a good leader to pick and maybe the second best leader available for this map. I would have been tempted to pick it instead of Willem if it had been available, even though I really wanted to take FIN. I don't like the Celts and I don't really understand why Charriu thinks duns are awesome, heh. I basically said as much in my preview post for PB55, but 25h (with PRO) walls that are monuments aren't that good - you can't build them until Masonry and walls just aren't that good. Even with stone, which you may or may not have and have to hook up first, they're not that good. And Gallic warriors are also not that good, replacing a unit that's also not good? I don't know, I just don't see why anyone would want to pick this civ when the starting techs aren't good either. "Not that good" is really all I can say about this civ. Like sunrise's forum title.

[superdeath]

Okay so about your pick.  I think I meant to include it in the list of synergy combos near the end but maybe I accidentally deleted the line when I was moving things around or something.  As compensation you get a longer explanation than the likely one-liner that would have originally been included!

Charlemagne was certainly a good leader to pick and maybe the second best leader available for this map.  I would have been tempted to pick it instead of Willem if it had been available, even though I really wanted to take FIN.  I don't like the Celts and I don't really understand why Charriu thinks duns are awesome, heh.  I basically said as much in my preview post for PB55, but 25h (with PRO) walls that are monuments aren't that good - you can't build them until Masonry and walls just aren't that good.  Even with stone, which you may or may not have and have to hook up first, they're not that good.  And Gallic warriors are also not that good, replacing a unit that's also not good?  I don't know, I just don't see why anyone would want to pick this civ when the starting techs aren't good either. "Not that good" is really all I can say about this civ.  Like sunrise's forum title.

I miss RTR swords. Makes building swordsmen worth building, although maybe toooooo good.

[NobleHelium]

Back to reporting.

With peace at our northern border secured for the moment we moved many units down south and looked for an opening to attack Laz shortly after our treaty with him expired.  Laz had teched Feudalism and was clearly trying to make it to Guilds, so now was a good time to strike (although I have my doubts that he would have made it to Guilds before us).  On t123 we got a 1-mover stack supported by a catapult 2N of Nicomedia, and also moved a large HA stack into Standstill.  We also had HAs northwest of the 1-mover stack which can attack Nicomedia from the fog. You can also see me finally plantationing the sugar.




On t124 Nicomedia's defenses were largely the same, with just a newly produced longbow as the addition.  So we moved in.

Catapult vs 25% Fortify CG2 D1 Longbowman @ 0.1: LOSS, down to 76 HP
Horse Archer vs 25% Fortify CG2 D1 76 HP Longbowman @ 5.4%: WITHDRAW, down to 50 HP
Horse Archer vs CG1 D1 91 HP Longbowman @ 3.1%: LOSS, down to 77 HP
Horse Archer vs CG1 D1 77 HP Longbowman @ 9.9%: LOSS, down to 62 HP
Horse Archer vs 25% Fortify 90 HP Axeman @ 22.7%: LOSS, down to 39 HP
Horse Archer vs 25% Fortify CG2 D1 50 HP Longbowman @ 39.2%: WITHDRAW, down to 36 HP
C1 Horse Archer vs CG1 D1 62 HP Longbowman @ 58.5%: WIN, down to 54 HP
Horse Archer vs 25% Fortify CG1 D1 89 HP Archer @ 45.6%: WITHDRAW, down to 34 HP
CR1 Axeman vs 25% Fortify CG1 D1 89 HP Archer @ 16.3%: WIN, down to 8 HP
Axeman vs CG1 D1 88 HP Archer @ 36.6%: LOSS, down to 16 HP
C1 Axeman vs 25% Fortify CG2 D1 36 HP Longbowman @ 55.6%: WIN, down to 48 HP
Axeman vs 25% Fortify 39 HP Axeman @ 89.9%: WIN, no damage
Spearman vs 25% Fortify CG1 D1 34 HP Archer @ 93.9%: WIN, down to 12 HP
Axeman vs CG1 D1 16 HP Archer @ > 99.9%: WIN, down to 83 HP

Each color represents a distinct defensive unit, so you can see how we whittled down the HP of each unit.

Our plan after capturing Nicomedia was to move the Standstill HAs to the dye hill 2SE of the city to fork Angora and Constantinople (and also fork Nicomedia should we fail to capture the city on the first turn), but after capturing Nicomedia we noticed that there were two spears 2NW of Constantinople which were ripe for picking while they were out in the open.  Odds weren't going to get better than this, so we attacked them with our HAs.

C1 Horse Archer vs C1 Spearman @ 24.1%: WIN, down to 34 HP
C1 Shock Horse Archer vs Spearman @ 34.3%: LOSS, down to 43 HP
Horse Archer vs 43 HP Spearman @ 96.9%: WIN, no damage

After this we moved our chariot to the hill as originally planned to reveal a few more tiles, but otherwise we stacked all the HAs together.  We also moved 1-movers out of Standstill to cover the injured one, which got 5 EXP from the victory.




We saw that Constantinople was poorly defended as expected, with only an axeman and a chariot in the city.  The new longbow in Nicomedia was not promoted and there is also a spearman southwest of the city - I can only conclude that Laz did not think we could take the city this turn because he could not see the horse archers 1E of Explore.




You'll notice on the t123 screenshot that we were due a GP. I had hoped that it would be a Prophet to give us a shrine in Explore to counter Amica's, but alas it was not to be and we got a Scientist instead. The plan was that we would tech Music for the Artist if we got a Prophet, so that we can finally launch a Golden Age, making use of the Mausoleum and allowing us to swap civics. Instead we started teching to Feudalism to unlock said civics before launching the GA.



We also had four out of the top five cities on t123, which was amusing.  This is the high water mark for our dominance of the top 5 - this will not happen again.



Demos for t124.